Calling a flop 3b shove with NFD - losing play?

shakinaces

Oppo is an aggro reg.  Reason for call in game was that I assumed that he could do with this a flush draw, which I think makes the call legit to balance out the times he has sets, 2pr.  Not sure he'd chuck in a total spew bluff vs me, there was no tilt in play at the table so there must be a hand.

As a follow up question - what would the best line be if the 3-bet was smaller - fold, call or 4b-shove?

And as a second follow up question, with the NFD and position, should I take the more passive line and just call flop?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
villain	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£25.66
bb	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£20.47
UTG	Big blind		£0.20	£0.50	£9.80
	Your hole cards	7 A
UTG	Check
MP	Fold
CO	Fold
shakinaces	Raise		£0.60	£1.10	£24.94
villain	Call		£0.50	£1.60	£25.16
BB	Fold
UTG	Fold
Flop
		10 2 3
villain	Bet		£1.20	£2.80	£23.96
shakinaces	Raise		£3.00	£5.80	£21.94
villain	All-in		£23.96	£29.76	£0.00
shakinaces	All-in		£21.94	£51.70	£0.00

HENDRIK62

Was hoping someone better than me would jump in here, maybe a bit of dialogue will encourage some responses.

Short of flopping the flush I dont think you could see a better board, the way you play the flop it seems to me you are determined to realise your equity which you do.

I likely play it more passively, take a card and see what villian does on next street, but I am Nitty McNitface

Duesenberg

It's a close spot but I can't say I'm loving the call when villain shoves here given the preceding action.

Looking at our opponents range here it just screams of 22 or 33. Given this was vs an aggressive reg and you opened from the button, there's not much else here he can have which would take this line. SB vs a BTN open should find our opponents pre flop 3 betting range at its widest. This makes an overpair highly unlikely well as TT. Also, a lot of his flush draw combos are also likely 3bets from the SB here - KQs, KJs, QJs, and possibly J9s and 89s too. I also can't really see villain having any 2 pair combos on this flop either - flatting T3, T2 and 32 here seems rather improbable. He could well play his combo draws like this but there aren't many of those - just 5c4c and 6c5c. I'm also generally dubious as to how often our opponent will take this line with flush draws which aren't to the nuts.

You need your call to be winning 44% of the time to be profitable and I'm not sure you'll be good often enough here - you're in a heap of trouble vs sets and also AT, you're flipping vs any other overplayed Tx combos and I'm sceptical as to how many bluffs the villain can really have here given preflop positions/action.

Vs a super small 3bet on the flop you are still not getting the correct direct odds to draw to your flush by the turn but implied odds may just about be enough to peel one and fold to further aggression should you miss. When 4bet shoving yourself I think you'll have close to zero fold equity on that board and will not be giving yourself the correct price vs villains calling range. 

 

Generally speaking I like a mixture of raises and flats for balance when facing the lead on the flop here. There are certainly times I'd be happy to call it off on the flop but on that specific flop and given the preflop actions I'm not sure that's one of them.  

FeelGroggy

Don't love getting shoved on as played but raise folding here is just a complete disaster. Think I would call as played and sometimes expect to see a hand like QJcc but not be shocked to see 22 33 a reasonable %. I might just call flop vs the donk lead, vs his bluffs/ semi bluffs ace high is gonna be ahead and vs his valuebets we still have decent equity, and position and we can happily call 2 streets on pretty much all turns. I would pay off and make note of what he shows up with. If he's leading these kind of boards with all his strong value hands it suddenly becomes very profitable to start playing really aggressively vs his checks, because he simply isn't going to have enough strong hands in his range to call down with often

shakinaces

Thanks for the replies.

I didn't factor 23s into villains range so didn't have the clean over card outs that I thought I may have.

There definitely seems to be a trend to regs donking out way more frequently with strong made hands these days.  I can't say I get my head around what the benefits are, I must do more reading!

With a made hand (ie KK / AT) I'd be more inclined to call down pending the runout, it just seems a bit weak with draws to have to call flop and turn, folding river and never really having true implied odds (ie will a competent player ever pay me off with hands like 23 when the flush hits and I suddenly start playing back?)

rancid

Calling i think is far better than raising if you look at entire range.

Fact you have NFD removes a lot of flush combos from oppo's range.

I can't' think of a reason to raise verus this lead out, specially when your not raising KK and probably all your sets overpairs and top pairs/ staright draws - are you only raisng NFD? answer not required

Think you need to look at why you actually wanna get your stack in versus someone who leads intro you when you hold your middling range.