Bankroll for Online cash

stretch83

Hi all,

I need a little help with working out bankroll management for Online cash.

I have read a lot of info online and it varies from 20-100 buy ins for online cash.  

I have opted for the nitty end as I am new at 100 buy ins but was just wandering if anyone thinks I really should be moving up in levels earlier to take a shot at the next buy in level?

Any advice or examples from your own experiences would be really appreciated.

castiger06

In Response to Bankroll for Online cash:

Hi all, I need a little help with working out bankroll management for Online cash. I have read a lot of info online and it varies from 20-100 buy ins for online cash.   I have opted for the nitty end as I am new at 100 buy ins but was just wandering if anyone thinks I really should be moving up in levels earlier to take a shot at the next buy in level? Any advice or examples from your own experiences would be really appreciated.
Posted by stretch83

Contary to popular opinion, unless you are aiming to go 'Pro', I wouldn't use BRM at all, if you are new to poker then allocate what you can afford to lose, I play at the micros and allocate myself £20 per week to spend on my hobby, if it goes that week I reload next wek if not I play until I do lose it. the point is when you see BRM plastered all over it is really aimed at the 'higher level of poker' if you are going to grind it out then you need to have the money there to live with the ineveitable 'varience' losses.

if your wanting to play at a certain level I would suggest a 'starting' limit - for example to play .2/.4 I would say £30 would be ok thats  7n abit buy ins - if you experience a run of losing set a stop loss of 3 buyins then come back to it later.

If you are wanting to 'take a shot' at a higher limit - hey why not just remember that your 'lose' limit is what your playing with not a BRM...so again for clarity if you deposit £100 then play with that at a .5/1 if you think you can compete, if it goes it goes - personaly I would play at a limit where I can enjoy a bit of poker time without jepordising my entire stack on possibly one throw of the dice but thats the difference BRM restricts you to certain levels until you can bankroll the next level, playing with a loss limit gives you the flexibility to play at whatever level you want and who knows you might just earn a few quid in the process.

Just an alternative view for you to think about.

Cheers

Tikay10

^^^^

Very good post, castiger.

Very few recreational players have a "poker bankroll" as such.
 
It's very important - as you note - to play within our means though. If we can reasonably afford to risk losing £20 per week, then £20 per week is our "bankroll" really.    

Duesenberg

The short and sweet answer to this in my opinion is that 50 buy ins is just about perfect. 20 is a bit too low to be able to ride through any downswings without having to drop down in stakes almost immediately and 100 buy ins, whilst offering you a great safety net for bad variance, may unnecessarily slow your progress of moving up through the stakes (should that be your aim).

The longer answer to this (warning - wall of text incoming!) is that there is no 'one size fits all' solution to bankroll management and over time you'll need to find what works best for you. With this in mind there are several things to consider:

Firstly, over the long run, are you a winning cash game player? 

Bankroll management is essentailly a just mechanism to protect long term winners from the inevitable downswings of this game, thereby ensuring they never lose their roll and have to re-deposit. If you are not a winning player over the long run (the majority aren't to be frank), then bankroll management is essentially meaningless - it simply becomes a question of how much play would you like to get for your money before you need to make your next deposit.

Secondly, how easy will you find it to drop down in stakes should you need to? 

The more cavalier you are with your bankroll the more likely you are to need to do this at some point. Whilst in theory this should seem pretty straightforward, many players get stubbornly attached to whatever stake they have been playing (especially after having had some early sucess at a higher level) - eg 'I'm a winning player at 20nl, I shouldn't need to drop down to 10nl'. Being brutally honest with yourself and having the humility to drop down the stakes as and when required is an essential ingredient to long term sucess in cash games. This can often be easier said than done.

Thridly, what effect will your chosen BRM have on your mental game? 

It is paramount that considerations to your bankroll should have zero effect on any indivdual hand decisions whilst at the table. For example, there will be times when firing that third barrel bluff is the most profitable thing to do, but if bankroll concerns prevent you from making the best play in game and pulling the trigger then you need to reconsider whatever bankroll requirements you have set yourself. I am a bankroll nit for this reason alone.

Fourthly, what stakes are you playing and what is your winrate?

Even for the very best players, the higher you go, the lower your winrate will inevitably become (due to the average skill level of your opponents increasing). The lower your winrate goes, the longer and deeper your downswings will be. Therefore it is often good practice to increase your bankroll requirements as you move up through the stakes. Winning at 10bb per 100 hands can have a very different effect on your bankroll requirements to winning at 2bb/100 (even though you are a long term winner in both scenarios). To give you an example from my own play, over the last couple of years I logged 300k hands at 20nl on another site (one where I can downlaod and analyse my hand history). Over those 300k hands I had a winrate of 8bb/100 (considered as a pretty high winrate in the whole scheme of things). Even winning at 8bb/100 I still experienced a 30 buy in downswing at one point over those 300k hands.

If you are relatively new to cash games I would recommend starting at the lowest stakes regardless of your bankroll size. However, starting with 100 buyins for 4nl should allow you to take shots at higher levels pretty quickly without having to pad out your bankroll too much first. I would say if you can win 10-15 buyins at 4nl then give 10nl a shot for 5-6 buy ins and see how you go from there. One final consideration specific to Sky is that the rake is lower at 20nl+ (5%) than at 10nl and below (7.5%). This means that at 20nl and upwards you can make more absolute profit in terms of big blinds even whilst having a lower overall winrate than at 10nl and under, so there is a pretty good incentive to climb the stakes promptly on that basis alone.

Good luck!

SR23

In Response to Re: Bankroll for Online cash:

The short and sweet answer to this in my opinion is that 50 buy ins is just about perfect. 20 is a bit too low to be able to ride through any downswings without having to drop down in stakes almost immediately and 100 buy ins, whilst offering you a great safety net for bad variance, may unnecessarily slow your progress of moving up through the stakes (should that be your aim). The longer answer to this (warning - wall of text incoming!) is that there is no 'one size fits all' solution to bankroll management and over time you'll need to find what works best for you. With this in mind there are several things to consider: Firstly, over the long run, are you a winning cash game player?  Bankroll management is essentailly a just mechanism to protect long term winners from the inevitable downswings of this game, thereby ensuring they never lose their roll and have to re-deposit. If you are not a winning player over the long run (the majority aren't to be frank), then bankroll management is essentially meaningless - it simply becomes a question of how much play would you like to get for your money before you need to make your next deposit. Secondly, how easy will you find it to drop down in stakes should you need to?  The more cavalier you are with your bankroll the more likely you are to need to do this at some point. Whilst in theory this should seem pretty straightforward, many players get stubbornly attached to whatever stake they have been playing (especially after having had some early sucess at a higher level) - eg 'I'm a winning player at 20nl, I shouldn't need to drop down to 10nl'. Being brutally honest with yourself and having the humility to drop down the stakes as and when required is an essential ingredient to long term sucess in cash games. This can often be easier said than done. Thridly, what effect will your chosen BRM have on your mental game?  It is paramount that considerations to your bankroll should have zero effect on any indivdual hand decisions whilst at the table. For example, there will be times when firing that third barrel bluff is the most profitable thing to do, but if bankroll concerns prevent you from making the best play in game and pulling the trigger then you need to reconsider whatever bankroll requirements you have set yourself. I am a bankroll nit for this reason alone. Fourthly, what stakes are you playing and what is your winrate? Even for the very best players, the higher you go, the lower your winrate will inevitably become (due to the average skill level of your opponents increasing). The lower your winrate goes, the longer and deeper your downswings will be. Therefore it is often good practice to increase your bankroll requirements as you move up through the stakes. Winning at 10bb per 100 hands can have a very different effect on your bankroll requirements to winning at 2bb/100 (even though you are a long term winner in both scenarios). To give you an example from my own play, over the last couple of years I logged 300k hands at 20nl on another site (one where I can downlaod and analyse my hand history). Over those 300k hands I had a winrate of 8bb/100 (considered as a pretty high winrate in the whole scheme of things). Even winning at 8bb/100 I still experienced a 30 buy in downswing at one point over those 300k hands. If you are relatively new to cash games I would recommend starting at the lowest stakes regardless of your bankroll size. However, starting with 100 buyins for 4nl should allow you to take shots at higher levels pretty quickly without having to pad out your bankroll too much first. I would say if you can win 10-15 buyins at 4nl then give 10nl a shot for 5-6 buy ins and see how you go from there. One final consideration specific to Sky is that the rake is lower at 20nl+ (5%) than at 10nl and below (7.5%). This means that at 20nl and upwards you can make more absolute profit in terms of big blinds even whilst having a lower overall winrate than at 10nl and under, so there is a pretty good incentive to climb the stakes promptly on that basis alone. Good luck!
Posted by Duesenberg

Great post (and winrate). 

stretch83

Hi Castiger,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have been playing poker on and off for a while however more recently I have seen some success with Cash poker taking a £55 deposit upto £400 in a few months. Unfortunately I have been silly and have not recorded my results in terms of winrates.  I have only been taking a note of my balance after each day and have seen steady growth.

I am a winning player at the moment, however fully aware is more than likely variance related and I know I have a long way to go to improve.

I have taken your advice and have worked out I am willing to deposit £50 a month towards poker which I intend to use to take shots at higher stakes and tournaments.  I started today and lost £15 immediately playing bounty hunters and have played a few hours of 10nl which went badly at first however managed to claw back only a £5 loss.  I will take 3 more shots at 10nl and if I lose it will drop down to 4nl where my BR is really deepstacked, and then repeat next month.

Whilst I think it would be great to be a pro, I am not aspiring to be one I would be more than happy for this to be a hobby that does not cost me anything or even makes a little bit of walking around money each month.  My ultimate goal would to play a few live tournies, SPT's etc and maybe one day enough to make an LV trip.

Thanks again for taking the time to make the post, and thank you for the advice about not worrying too much about the B.R.  I can afford to take a few shots at higher stakes games which is where I am pushing to get to, why not take it and see how I run?

Cheers,

stretch83

Hi Duesenberg,

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply with a very detailed response.

I didn't always have a 100bb BR I started off with maybe 20 buy ins for 4nl and have grinded a bit up on Sky and then made a deposit on another site and played speed zoom style cash 4nl on there.  I think I just had some very good run good on both sites and saw my balances move up nicely however have always stayed at 4nl.

"Firstly, over the long run, are you a winning cash game player?"

Hard to answer for sure as I don't keep records of my hands however I have played over 2000+ SNG's and in profit over two sites and have 4/6 tabled cash for a few months and made a profit of about 300 quid or so.  I have studied a fair bit and belong to a a paid for site and a facebook group to discuss hands etc.  As well as have received some really great advice from these forums.  I would say I am just about a winning player that makes a fair few mistakes along the way.

"Dropping down in stakes" - I am pretty sure I would be fine with that in Poker.  I am more inclined to be a BR nit then a shot-taker as my main aim from poker is to learn be able to play whenever I want and not have to wait for the next payday to come around before reloading again.

BRM - I am very comfortable at 4nl blffing with missed draws on the river etc and feel I play the way I have learnt really well.  I tried 10nl last night and had a mixed game.  I did really notice the increased bet sizing so it is something I really need to get used to.  I think a counter to this is I am going to ring fence 50 quid from my wages each month to take a shot at the limit above my comfort zone if I lose it, back to grinding 4nl for the remainder of the month until I am rolled over 50 buy ins for 10nl if I win it will help me progress quicker.

Fourthly, what stakes are you playing and what is your winrate?

Stakes I am currently playing 4nl and now 10nl.  I have not kept records of winrates etc which is really bad of me.  So this is definitley something I need to look into.  

Thanks again for your advice and GL on the tables.

stretch83

And since the Micro Madness promotion started I have lost £160 all at lowest stakes so at leat I know I have the discipline to move down.

Just need to learn to play better lol

Duesenberg

You have my sympathy Stretch. Since Micro Madness started the games have been significantly tougher at all stakes with regs out in force grinding their knackers off for promo points. Even if a lot of these regs aren't the necessarily all that good, the significant reduction in the ratio of regs to bad recreational players on any given table makes the whole cash game ecosystem a tougher place to be (even for the very best at this game). Whilst I have already made a few quid out of the promo, I for one can't wait for it to be over frankly.

On the plus side, well done for being disciplined with your bankroll. Also, times like this can sometimes force one to work harder on ones games which can help reap more rewards than one would otherwise achieve once things get back to normal.

Chin up and good luck :-) 

gonedoggin

In Response to Re: Bankroll for Online cash:

The short and sweet answer to this in my opinion is that 50 buy ins is just about perfect. 20 is a bit too low to be able to ride through any downswings without having to drop down in stakes almost immediately and 100 buy ins, whilst offering you a great safety net for bad variance, may unnecessarily slow your progress of moving up through the stakes (should that be your aim). The longer answer to this (warning - wall of text incoming!) is that there is no 'one size fits all' solution to bankroll management and over time you'll need to find what works best for you. With this in mind there are several things to consider: Firstly, over the long run, are you a winning cash game player?  Bankroll management is essentailly a just mechanism to protect long term winners from the inevitable downswings of this game, thereby ensuring they never lose their roll and have to re-deposit. If you are not a winning player over the long run (the majority aren't to be frank), then bankroll management is essentially meaningless - it simply becomes a question of how much play would you like to get for your money before you need to make your next deposit. Secondly, how easy will you find it to drop down in stakes should you need to?  The more cavalier you are with your bankroll the more likely you are to need to do this at some point. Whilst in theory this should seem pretty straightforward, many players get stubbornly attached to whatever stake they have been playing (especially after having had some early sucess at a higher level) - eg 'I'm a winning player at 20nl, I shouldn't need to drop down to 10nl'. Being brutally honest with yourself and having the humility to drop down the stakes as and when required is an essential ingredient to long term sucess in cash games. This can often be easier said than done. Thridly, what effect will your chosen BRM have on your mental game?  It is paramount that considerations to your bankroll should have zero effect on any indivdual hand decisions whilst at the table. For example, there will be times when firing that third barrel bluff is the most profitable thing to do, but if bankroll concerns prevent you from making the best play in game and pulling the trigger then you need to reconsider whatever bankroll requirements you have set yourself. I am a bankroll nit for this reason alone. Fourthly, what stakes are you playing and what is your winrate? Even for the very best players, the higher you go, the lower your winrate will inevitably become (due to the average skill level of your opponents increasing). The lower your winrate goes, the longer and deeper your downswings will be. Therefore it is often good practice to increase your bankroll requirements as you move up through the stakes. Winning at 10bb per 100 hands can have a very different effect on your bankroll requirements to winning at 2bb/100 (even though you are a long term winner in both scenarios). To give you an example from my own play, over the last couple of years I logged 300k hands at 20nl on another site (one where I can downlaod and analyse my hand history). Over those 300k hands I had a winrate of 8bb/100 (considered as a pretty high winrate in the whole scheme of things). Even winning at 8bb/100 I still experienced a 30 buy in downswing at one point over those 300k hands. If you are relatively new to cash games I would recommend starting at the lowest stakes regardless of your bankroll size. However, starting with 100 buyins for 4nl should allow you to take shots at higher levels pretty quickly without having to pad out your bankroll too much first. I would say if you can win 10-15 buyins at 4nl then give 10nl a shot for 5-6 buy ins and see how you go from there. One final consideration specific to Sky is that the rake is lower at 20nl+ (5%) than at 10nl and below (7.5%). This means that at 20nl and upwards you can make more absolute profit in terms of big blinds even whilst having a lower overall winrate than at 10nl and under, so there is a pretty good incentive to climb the stakes promptly on that basis alone. Good luck!
Posted by Duesenberg

Very good post

stretch83

In Response to Re: Bankroll for Online cash:

You have my sympathy Stretch. Since Micro Madness started the games have been significantly tougher at all stakes with regs out in force grinding their knackers off for promo points. Even if a lot of these regs aren't the necessarily all that good, the significant reduction in the ratio of regs to bad recreational players on any given table makes the whole cash game ecosystem a tougher place to be (even for the very best at this game). Whilst I have already made a few quid out of the promo, I for one can't wait for it to be over frankly. On the plus side, well done for being disciplined with your bankroll. Also, times like this can sometimes force one to work harder on ones games which can help reap more rewards than one would otherwise achieve once things get back to normal. Chin up and good luck :-) 
Posted by Duesenberg

That makes a lot of sense now, I guess it is a juicy looking promo so if you are prepared to put in the grind you can make a fair bit back.

My mistake was moving uptp 10nl the day the promo started and just got destroyed. I think I lost £70 within an hour and I moved down in stake and just continued losing for the rest of the week at a steady rate.

Things have taken a bit of a turn for the better though since making this post weirdly and I flopped the nut house only to have two players shove all in on me

Thanks for your kind words, it really does mean a lot