Hand Query From The 100 B/H

loololollo · October 2017

Hand is from a few weeks back; both players in the hand have been playing tight aggresive, Villian 1 has been slightly looser in terms of hand ranges. Both are solid winning regs.

Couple of questions:

Do you play the hand differently, if so, how?

As played would you call the river, if so, why?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Villian 1	Small blind		250.00	250.00	14490.00
Hero	Big blind		500.00	750.00	15510.00
	Your hole cards	A 5
Villian 2	Raise		1000.00	1750.00	8616.80
X	Fold
XX	Fold
XXX	Fold
Villian 1	Call		750.00	2500.00	13740.00
Hero	Call		500.00	3000.00	15010.00
Flop
		K 5 4
Villian 1	Check
Hero	Check
Villian 2	Bet		1233.00	4233.00	7383.80
Villian 1	Call		1233.00	5466.00	12507.00
Hero	Call		1233.00	6699.00	13777.00
Turn
		A
Villian 1	Bet		2000.00	8699.00	10507.00
Hero	Raise		7349.50	16048.50	6427.50
Villian 2	Fold
Villian 1	Call		5349.50	21398.00	5157.50
River
		K
Villian 1	All-in		5157.50	26555.50	0.00
Hero	Fold
Villian 1	Muck
Villian 1	Win		21398.00		21398.00
Villian 1	Return		5157.50	0.00	26555.50

Edit: Unsure how to post hand history correctly... Hero's stack is 6.4k after turn raise. Hero has Villian covered by 1.3k.

Angmar2626 · October 2017

What do you think his b/c turn range looks like?

Congrats on recent results btw

Angmar2626 · October 2017

Oh wait, it's Villain 1 - so he lead/calls the turn, after flatting sb pre. What does THAT range look like..? :S

Cammykaze · October 2017

What stage of the tourney is this and who is Villian 1?

If I am reading the post right you and Villian 1 start the hand with roughly 30bb each. . Villian 2 has about 16bb from what I can make out and I am also assuming its midway through the tourney.

I will break down my thinking on each betting round.

Preflop:- fine

Flop:- yip

Turn:- Gets closer here for me. Against an average winning player I am choosing between calling and raising. Calling disguises your hand somewhat and a raise (assuming Villian 2 folds) gives you all the options if Villian 1 calls and checks the river. Also you can take the pot right there which isn't bad either. I'd say an allin is overkill against a good regular as your only called when beat. Between the call and raise I would prompt for call most often as are range is less capped which I like. Balancing between calling 70% and 30% raising. Raise size is fine, I assume you are raising to shove a blank river?

River:- Easy fold unless Villian is tricky

Overall I like the play and the only real decision is on the turn. For the Villians range its a K8-KQ/full house or bluff.

K8-KQ seems easily the most likely, a full house I would expect the Villan to get it in on the turn with a set so seems less likely, a bluff well....... if its a bluff he is a wizard!

Angmar2626 · October 2017

But what Kx combos does he lead the turn with? Kx hearts maybe but don't know too many regs who are leading this on Ace turn.

Super weird spot. What value hands does he actually have by the river that don't get it in on flush draw turn? And what bluffs does he have? Like does he really lead Ace high turn that sizing with combo draw?

So confused, thanks for posting!

Cammykaze · October 2017

In Response to Re: Hand Query From The 100 B/H:

What stage of the tourney is this and who is Villian 1? If I am reading the post right you and Villian 1 start the hand with roughly 30bb each. . Villian 2 has about 16bb from what I can make out and I am also assuming its midway through the tourney. I will break down my thinking on each betting round. Preflop:- fine Flop:- yip Turn:- Gets closer here for me. Against an average winning player I am choosing between calling and raising. Calling disguises your hand somewhat and a raise (assuming Villian 2 folds) gives you all the options if Villian 1 calls and checks the river. Also you can take the pot right there which isn't bad either. I'd say an allin is overkill against a good regular as your only called when beat. Between the call and raise I would prompt for call most often as are range is less capped which I like. Balancing between calling 70% and 30% raising. Raise size is fine, I assume you are raising to shove a blank river? River:- Easy fold unless Villian is tricky Overall I like the play and the only real decision is on the turn. For the Villians range its a K8-KQ/full house or bluff. K8-KQ seems easily the most likely, a full house I would expect the Villan to get it in on the turn with a set so seems less likely, a bluff well....... if its a bluff he is a wizard!
Posted by Cammykaze[/QUOTE

Edit: K4 and K5 in his range as well. This would explain the call on the turn and lead shove on river

Essexphil · October 2017

Am I loving life here?-No

That said, it's 5k to win 31k-calling all day, every day here

Cammykaze · October 2017

In Response to Re: Hand Query From The 100 B/H:

But what Kx combos does he lead the turn with? Kx hearts maybe but don't know too many regs who are leading this on Ace turn. Super weird spot. What value hands does he actually have by the river that don't get it in on flush draw turn? And what bluffs does he have? Like does he really lead Ace high turn that sizing with combo draw? So confused, thanks for posting!
Posted by Angmar2626

KX hearts/two pair/some Kx combos/set and semibluffs. Its a fairly weak lead.

Cammykaze · October 2017

In Response to Re: Hand Query From The 100 B/H:

Am I loving life here?-No That said, it's 5k to win 31k-calling all day, every day here
Posted by Essexphil

Right enough, 6 or 7/1. I expect to be beat so often but there maybe value in this call depending on opponent. After 3betting turn and Villian going for a small shove lead on river its a awful spot. I dont know many opponents who would do this with a bluff after the previous actions. I could be getting my pockets picked in these situations as I cannot make a call here.

FeelGroggy · October 2017

I think we can just fold flop. There are so many bad runouts for our hand, and we are going to improve so infrequently, that even if we are currently ahead there is a decent chance we won't be by river. There are literally 0 good runouts for us aside from hitting our ace / trips. I think we are behind to the sb fairly frequently here. 'Reg' sb flat ranges are usually fairly defined (going off your assumption he is a reg) and think he has a lot of Kx / mid strength pocket pairs. I don't envisage too many Ax floats OOP 3way here so think A5 is just behind too often to make money by calling flop, even if it seems nitty to fold 2nd pair top kicker.

As played think we want to either call or shove turn. Don't think it makes a lot of sense for our draws to go this size, think they want to jam to maximise fold equity, or call and see a pretty cheap river. What draws would you want to raise this size to, or do you just always have value? There aren't many semi bluff shoves we can have, unless we start jamming some bare straight draws sometimes. If we are just jamming 2pairs here, some sets then we are just gonna be super value heavy other than the times we have 63hh 67hh exactly. I mean this is fine if you think Ax is just gonna pay you off anyway and I guess depends on how you percieve villain. I lean towards call with this hand, although dont mind shoving, and would certainly look to shove our sets here. When we have sets here I would certainly jam as between them villains have more 2nd best hands they might find calls with, a lot more Ax etc when we don't have an ace) If i think villain is stationing an ace its a no brainer jam.

River is just funny. I really don't like how villain has played his hand. Just donk leading small on the turn, calling a raise and then donk jamming here. His hand just kind of makes no sense, as he should never lead turn with Kx, or if he is a reg as described be able to find and semi bluffs on the turn/ bluffs on the river, as 67 and stuff shouldn't be in his range. Can't think of a single hand villain can justify taking this line with. I guess the hand that would be the least poorly played for villain to show up with here is something like AJ or AQ with a backdoor flush draw, which made a loose float and beats us. In game I might call expecting to lose money v whatever he has taken this line with, but for the value of being able to see what he has taken such an absurd line with. I would love to know what he had. I'm not sure what it is but I think your behind almost always. (No offence intended to whoever villain is)

loololollo · October 2017

I think folding the flop is justifiable but it does seem pretty nitty, that being said, we're going to have to fold nearly all turns to a bet and likewise, on the river. I did ask "Villian 1" what his cards were, he didn't reply. However "Villian 2" said he had k6hh... so using this logic, I think folding was the right play, the only hand I could think of the Villian having that I beat was 76hh. Even so, bluffing here seems weird... it's hard for him to think we'd fold the river.

In future I think I like the idea of shoving turn over raising / calling because it polarizes our range a lot better and I think we can get called off by worse (54,A4,Ax?)... whereas just calling invites Villian 2 to tag along and there's going to be a lot of rivers where we don't know what to do.

The thing with raising the turn is I still give him the right odds to call with 76hh since I'm shoving / calling any river card. Which is probably the only reason I don't like it.