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a really interesting read
huuuuume
Member Posts: 569
i found this on cardrunners.com from one the high stakes players on there. i found it really interesting to read and i think i fit mostly into the 5-1 category. i know its long but well worth reading
You've probably heard this from many different people. I generally think these are oversimplified and am bored enough to map it out. I don't think the chart is linear like most people say. "Evolution" fits the description perfectly as evolution necessarily takes many branches. It's possible to be a species who stagnates and goes extinct. For the sake of our discussion that would constitute losing as opposed to being wiped from existence.
Players don't jump from step A to B to C. Some people stay at step A and hover around A a), A b) etc. To give a concrete example think of the last time you played live. No doubt you can remember an old man who has been playing poker for 40+ years. He's been playing poker since the Nixon administration yet why does he still suck? It's because he's grown complacent with his game... and he probably solidified his gameplan before you were born and has never deviated. Regardless of the trends in poker he carries on because that one winning day is good enough for him even though his bank account isn't lying to him as it slowly dwindles.
So before we examine where the old man fits into the equation we have to start from the very beginning:
1. The complete amature. These are people that don't know all the rules. These are people you might be able to stack when they hold 67 on a 4444K board and you have A-high. They might be weekend warriors who saw Phil Helmuth push all-in on TV and want to replicate such bravado. You can identify them by overbetting the pot severly with top pair no kicker, and not being able to laydown a A5 on a AQKJ2 board. They deposit online and splash around heavily. They are delighted to realize that their T4o only needs to catch one card to win the pot on a AQJK board and will gladly call large bets to get there.
2. The "competent" amature. He's not really competent and is most assuredly a large loser in the games, but he at least knows the majority of the rules. This particular category spans a broad horizon of potential players. Our complete amature might fit this category after a dozen sessions of poker. Our old man example fits this perfectly even though he's been playing for 40 years. His play is horrible, but he knows all the rules. He might even know a trick or two for gaining value or bluffing. His one successful bluff will override any memory of the failed dozen attempts leading up to said bluff. Things like "flop texture" and "pot control" aren't part of his vocabulary although he's probably heard some of those young fancy internet players use such terms at the table.
3. The entitled amature. The old man definitely straddles categories 2 and 3. He probably hovers closer to category 3 but could also be considered the alpha category 2. These are players who prematurely think they've paid their dues and should be winning at poker. You see them online a lot grinding out nl50 and nl25. They live to berate other players for their play and to share bad beat stories. They possess a plethora of excuses as to why they are not crushing nl5000 on upwards. They share anecdotal experiences of when Andy Bloch graced their presence at their nl50 table and how they proceeded to outplay him. Time is of no consequence to this type of player. One can be stuck here forever as evidenced by the old man.
It goes without saying that categories 1-3 make up the vast majority of the real poker playing community. It's important to note that any of those in groups 1-3 can play any stake of poker. They are often known for gambling up bankrolls from nothing and exhibiting awesome bankroll management by putting it all on the table. There are no stakes associated with amature players
4. The small stakes grinder. These players range from breakeven to winning players. If they don't breakeven or better than they display characteristics of categories 1-3. This category of player has the widest amount of attributes. These include 9-5ers who play every hour that they are home from work waiting for the day they can tell their boss to fu ck off when they hit a certain goal with their bankroll and can go pro, to players who are entitled low stakes grinders. They might be winning players but they haven't gotten passed their desire to berate and make excuses. There are even hidden Phil Iveys amongst the bunch. Players who play very well but fail in one or more "non-felt" related activities such as bankroll or tilt management who are slave to the busto/robusto cycle forever.
5. The low stakes grinder (LSG). The attributes of the entitled amature are never really erased from the player pool of any category but are probably most prevalent at the micro and low stakes where self-proclaimed poker geniuses are quick to tell you how awesome they are but are not quite as skilled at showing you. Again we see a broad range of players. Their thought processes are becoming refined, it might be possible to take down a few thousand dollars a month on a consistent basis. Players might begin to reach out to find poker Nirvana, studying the best players and trying to figure out how to get to higher stakes. This level of player also loves to crunch numbers on winrate, how much they could potentially make in a year, how much they could potential make playing higher. The results to these numbers are often extremely generous and boner-inspiring in those who slave away at menial 9-5 jobs. College students are less prone to fit this description.
And now we come to a major crossroads
5-1) Content Low Stakes Grinder: This might be a mom or dad who enjoys the extra income that poker provides. Their presence at the tables is usually small and so is their winrate and desire to improve. They are the ultimate complacent player and are probably a lot happier than 99% of the poker community.
5-2) Future Durrr Low Stakes Grinder: This guy is the cat's meow, the bees knees, the best poker player to ever grace a $1/$2 table. He watches the highest stake videos on any instructional sites. Those of this player type frequent the 2+2 forums. Their favorite response to any thread is "lol". On the positive side these players can turn into superstars. For every 100 players of this personality type maybe 5 make it to play 5/10 or higher. Most crash under the weight of their own ego and inflated sense of poker prowess. They'd sooner contract AIDS than to game select. Of those 5 that make it to play 5/10 and higher 4.9 collapse.
5-3) Well Adjusted Low Stakes Grinder: This guy has it all together. Bankroll management, tilt management, reasonable goals and a decent game. Stagnation is their worst enemy and they can be effected to varying degrees by symptoms of 5-1) to 5-3). Many times these types of players don't have a creative game. They know how to emulate plays they see from instructional sites but have no idea how to come up with new lines or to do anything other than ABC
6. The Mid Stakes Grinder (MSG). Awww yes. The most colorful group of poker players in all of poker. They frequent the Bellagio 5/10 games, the Commerce $1500 max buy, nl400+ online. Cliques are formed, personalities are molded, egos are inflated, while silent ninjas take your money.
6-1) The Ma&Pa Mid Stakes Grinder: Don't let the name fool you this can be an 18 year old male who somehow has the presence of mind to stash his ego. This can also be a single mom or dad playing for diaper money. The pitfalls of these types of players are complacency and stagnation. They are generally the last to evolve with the changing tides of the game and either adopt other qualities or fade away. They share common ancestory with 5-1) and 5-3) and eek out a small winrate for mid-sized cash
6-2) The Elitist Mid Stakes Grinder (E-MSG) If this group were to decide which country that best represented them they'd be Israel. God's chosen players. They grace you with their presence on 2+2, they are too good to explain to you why you're wrong so in place respond with "terribad." They often hide or overinflate their winnings. Some very few actually can back up their gigantic mouths with equally gigantic winrates. Their e-peens outweigh the Singularity that later became the Big Bang. These players are generally extensions of 5-2), future Durrrs and suffer the same fate. Although once you've become an E-MSG your chances of making it to HSNL are pretty good but your lifespan is often short. At the tables they are easily identified by their constant reminders that you snapping off their bluff was very -EV against their range.
6-3) The Ninja Mid Stakes Grinder: His post count on 2+2 is 17 but his join date is January 2003. He has never done a video for any training site but he's watched them all. He knows what you know and knows you know it. These guys can exhibit Ma&Pa qualties or can be complete play makers who are smart enough to keep it to themselves.
6-4) The Philosopher: This player isn't necessarily a mid stakes player but you will see a lot at mid stakes. Technically they can range from $2 SNGs and onward. They are often a byproduct of not moving up and getting too comfortable at stakes. They overthink EVERYTHING. There are two schools of these players:
6-4-a) Professor of Dumbfuckery: These guys overthink everything but almost always arrive at the same conclusion.... their opposition has the only hand that they beat and so they should call. These players are the most annoying at HUNL where lots of bluffing does occur. Although they are very easy to play against, it's a grind. They exhibit the reverse qualities of the competent amature (#2) in that their 20+ whiffed hero calls are quickly erased by their ultra-sick call with bottom pair in a 4bet pot.
6-5-b) Socrates Would Be Proud: This guy's thought processes are off the charts. Every decision incorporates 50 different elements from the hand. They have a check list of referencing their play to what they repped, what their opponent is repping, what is the flop texture, what is the pot size, how often have I been 3betting, how often have they been 3betting, do I have a history of value betting light, do they have a history of value betting light, did I leave the stove on, how does this guy react in 4bet/double OOP floated pots etc etc etc? They are the masters of information overload. Their frontal lobes have occasioally caught fire. They would fair well against the best of the best but they fail to realize that they aren't playing anywhere near that level of competition. Dumbing it down would do them a world of good
6-6) This Guy's Good: Everything is in balance. This is a well seasoned player with elements from all pools (even Professor of Dumbfuckery). Every hand played is near their A-game, every decision poured over using relevant information and a thinking process of equal weight to their opponent. They don't overthink and they don't underthink. They are comfortable playing at any level on the "leveling chart". Their ego is in check, their bankroll strong, their passion for the game is high. They are as comfortable calling for stacks with King high as they are with folding the 2nd nuts. Some of these guys go on to do great things. Some never move up. Some even exist at low stakes.
You've probably heard this from many different people. I generally think these are oversimplified and am bored enough to map it out. I don't think the chart is linear like most people say. "Evolution" fits the description perfectly as evolution necessarily takes many branches. It's possible to be a species who stagnates and goes extinct. For the sake of our discussion that would constitute losing as opposed to being wiped from existence.
Players don't jump from step A to B to C. Some people stay at step A and hover around A a), A b) etc. To give a concrete example think of the last time you played live. No doubt you can remember an old man who has been playing poker for 40+ years. He's been playing poker since the Nixon administration yet why does he still suck? It's because he's grown complacent with his game... and he probably solidified his gameplan before you were born and has never deviated. Regardless of the trends in poker he carries on because that one winning day is good enough for him even though his bank account isn't lying to him as it slowly dwindles.
So before we examine where the old man fits into the equation we have to start from the very beginning:
1. The complete amature. These are people that don't know all the rules. These are people you might be able to stack when they hold 67 on a 4444K board and you have A-high. They might be weekend warriors who saw Phil Helmuth push all-in on TV and want to replicate such bravado. You can identify them by overbetting the pot severly with top pair no kicker, and not being able to laydown a A5 on a AQKJ2 board. They deposit online and splash around heavily. They are delighted to realize that their T4o only needs to catch one card to win the pot on a AQJK board and will gladly call large bets to get there.
2. The "competent" amature. He's not really competent and is most assuredly a large loser in the games, but he at least knows the majority of the rules. This particular category spans a broad horizon of potential players. Our complete amature might fit this category after a dozen sessions of poker. Our old man example fits this perfectly even though he's been playing for 40 years. His play is horrible, but he knows all the rules. He might even know a trick or two for gaining value or bluffing. His one successful bluff will override any memory of the failed dozen attempts leading up to said bluff. Things like "flop texture" and "pot control" aren't part of his vocabulary although he's probably heard some of those young fancy internet players use such terms at the table.
3. The entitled amature. The old man definitely straddles categories 2 and 3. He probably hovers closer to category 3 but could also be considered the alpha category 2. These are players who prematurely think they've paid their dues and should be winning at poker. You see them online a lot grinding out nl50 and nl25. They live to berate other players for their play and to share bad beat stories. They possess a plethora of excuses as to why they are not crushing nl5000 on upwards. They share anecdotal experiences of when Andy Bloch graced their presence at their nl50 table and how they proceeded to outplay him. Time is of no consequence to this type of player. One can be stuck here forever as evidenced by the old man.
It goes without saying that categories 1-3 make up the vast majority of the real poker playing community. It's important to note that any of those in groups 1-3 can play any stake of poker. They are often known for gambling up bankrolls from nothing and exhibiting awesome bankroll management by putting it all on the table. There are no stakes associated with amature players
4. The small stakes grinder. These players range from breakeven to winning players. If they don't breakeven or better than they display characteristics of categories 1-3. This category of player has the widest amount of attributes. These include 9-5ers who play every hour that they are home from work waiting for the day they can tell their boss to fu ck off when they hit a certain goal with their bankroll and can go pro, to players who are entitled low stakes grinders. They might be winning players but they haven't gotten passed their desire to berate and make excuses. There are even hidden Phil Iveys amongst the bunch. Players who play very well but fail in one or more "non-felt" related activities such as bankroll or tilt management who are slave to the busto/robusto cycle forever.
5. The low stakes grinder (LSG). The attributes of the entitled amature are never really erased from the player pool of any category but are probably most prevalent at the micro and low stakes where self-proclaimed poker geniuses are quick to tell you how awesome they are but are not quite as skilled at showing you. Again we see a broad range of players. Their thought processes are becoming refined, it might be possible to take down a few thousand dollars a month on a consistent basis. Players might begin to reach out to find poker Nirvana, studying the best players and trying to figure out how to get to higher stakes. This level of player also loves to crunch numbers on winrate, how much they could potentially make in a year, how much they could potential make playing higher. The results to these numbers are often extremely generous and boner-inspiring in those who slave away at menial 9-5 jobs. College students are less prone to fit this description.
And now we come to a major crossroads
5-1) Content Low Stakes Grinder: This might be a mom or dad who enjoys the extra income that poker provides. Their presence at the tables is usually small and so is their winrate and desire to improve. They are the ultimate complacent player and are probably a lot happier than 99% of the poker community.
5-2) Future Durrr Low Stakes Grinder: This guy is the cat's meow, the bees knees, the best poker player to ever grace a $1/$2 table. He watches the highest stake videos on any instructional sites. Those of this player type frequent the 2+2 forums. Their favorite response to any thread is "lol". On the positive side these players can turn into superstars. For every 100 players of this personality type maybe 5 make it to play 5/10 or higher. Most crash under the weight of their own ego and inflated sense of poker prowess. They'd sooner contract AIDS than to game select. Of those 5 that make it to play 5/10 and higher 4.9 collapse.
5-3) Well Adjusted Low Stakes Grinder: This guy has it all together. Bankroll management, tilt management, reasonable goals and a decent game. Stagnation is their worst enemy and they can be effected to varying degrees by symptoms of 5-1) to 5-3). Many times these types of players don't have a creative game. They know how to emulate plays they see from instructional sites but have no idea how to come up with new lines or to do anything other than ABC
6. The Mid Stakes Grinder (MSG). Awww yes. The most colorful group of poker players in all of poker. They frequent the Bellagio 5/10 games, the Commerce $1500 max buy, nl400+ online. Cliques are formed, personalities are molded, egos are inflated, while silent ninjas take your money.
6-1) The Ma&Pa Mid Stakes Grinder: Don't let the name fool you this can be an 18 year old male who somehow has the presence of mind to stash his ego. This can also be a single mom or dad playing for diaper money. The pitfalls of these types of players are complacency and stagnation. They are generally the last to evolve with the changing tides of the game and either adopt other qualities or fade away. They share common ancestory with 5-1) and 5-3) and eek out a small winrate for mid-sized cash
6-2) The Elitist Mid Stakes Grinder (E-MSG) If this group were to decide which country that best represented them they'd be Israel. God's chosen players. They grace you with their presence on 2+2, they are too good to explain to you why you're wrong so in place respond with "terribad." They often hide or overinflate their winnings. Some very few actually can back up their gigantic mouths with equally gigantic winrates. Their e-peens outweigh the Singularity that later became the Big Bang. These players are generally extensions of 5-2), future Durrrs and suffer the same fate. Although once you've become an E-MSG your chances of making it to HSNL are pretty good but your lifespan is often short. At the tables they are easily identified by their constant reminders that you snapping off their bluff was very -EV against their range.
6-3) The Ninja Mid Stakes Grinder: His post count on 2+2 is 17 but his join date is January 2003. He has never done a video for any training site but he's watched them all. He knows what you know and knows you know it. These guys can exhibit Ma&Pa qualties or can be complete play makers who are smart enough to keep it to themselves.
6-4) The Philosopher: This player isn't necessarily a mid stakes player but you will see a lot at mid stakes. Technically they can range from $2 SNGs and onward. They are often a byproduct of not moving up and getting too comfortable at stakes. They overthink EVERYTHING. There are two schools of these players:
6-4-a) Professor of Dumbfuckery: These guys overthink everything but almost always arrive at the same conclusion.... their opposition has the only hand that they beat and so they should call. These players are the most annoying at HUNL where lots of bluffing does occur. Although they are very easy to play against, it's a grind. They exhibit the reverse qualities of the competent amature (#2) in that their 20+ whiffed hero calls are quickly erased by their ultra-sick call with bottom pair in a 4bet pot.
6-5-b) Socrates Would Be Proud: This guy's thought processes are off the charts. Every decision incorporates 50 different elements from the hand. They have a check list of referencing their play to what they repped, what their opponent is repping, what is the flop texture, what is the pot size, how often have I been 3betting, how often have they been 3betting, do I have a history of value betting light, do they have a history of value betting light, did I leave the stove on, how does this guy react in 4bet/double OOP floated pots etc etc etc? They are the masters of information overload. Their frontal lobes have occasioally caught fire. They would fair well against the best of the best but they fail to realize that they aren't playing anywhere near that level of competition. Dumbing it down would do them a world of good
6-6) This Guy's Good: Everything is in balance. This is a well seasoned player with elements from all pools (even Professor of Dumbfuckery). Every hand played is near their A-game, every decision poured over using relevant information and a thinking process of equal weight to their opponent. They don't overthink and they don't underthink. They are comfortable playing at any level on the "leveling chart". Their ego is in check, their bankroll strong, their passion for the game is high. They are as comfortable calling for stacks with King high as they are with folding the 2nd nuts. Some of these guys go on to do great things. Some never move up. Some even exist at low stakes.
Comments
6-6) This Guy's Good: Everything is in balance. This is a well seasoned player with elements from all pools (even Professor of Dumbfuckery)
I probably fit 'the old boy' category, however I've seen so many would be, 'wanna bee's' come and go over this last 18 years in Casino's and Online ... The key to this game is, play at a level that your comfortable at, and enjoy !!
wow that's a really good read. some very interesting points made but i found it very weird that i cant think of many players on sky poker who fit anywhere above the first 3 levels including myself
.
also im pretty certain there are no 6-6 players on here....but would love to know what sort of money sky's top players like isomorph and kegsy are winning.