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Advice on Hi-Lo hand please
FeelGroggy
Member Posts: 843
in Poker Chat
How do we proceed on the flop? Is calling preflop standard?
mcg899 Small blind 25.00 25.00 3597.50
FeelGroggy Big blind 50.00 75.00 3982.50
Your hole cards
Js
6c
Kc
Qs
rivermunky Raise 175.00 250.00 3752.50
LnarinOO Call 175.00 425.00 5547.50
dai-dull Fold
kohan Call 175.00 600.00 6500.00
mcg899 Fold
FeelGroggy Call 125.00 725.00 3857.50
Flop
Kh
10c
8c
FeelGroggy Check
rivermunky Bet 543.75 1268.75 3208.75
LnarinOO Fold
kohan Call 543.75 1812.50 5956.25
FeelGroggy
mcg899 Small blind 25.00 25.00 3597.50
FeelGroggy Big blind 50.00 75.00 3982.50
Your hole cards
Js
6c
Kc
Qs
rivermunky Raise 175.00 250.00 3752.50
LnarinOO Call 175.00 425.00 5547.50
dai-dull Fold
kohan Call 175.00 600.00 6500.00
mcg899 Fold
FeelGroggy Call 125.00 725.00 3857.50
Flop
Kh
10c
8c
FeelGroggy Check
rivermunky Bet 543.75 1268.75 3208.75
LnarinOO Fold
kohan Call 543.75 1812.50 5956.25
FeelGroggy
Comments
As played you’ll be up against the nut flush draw a ton so your clubs ain’t that great imo. It’s just a ****ty spot which happens a ton in PLO8 if you play too wide. You flop about as good as you could hope for here and you still don’t know what to do which kinda shows you how bad the call pre is.
So PLO8 folk, feel free to tell me if I'm talking s**te.
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Dangler + Can't make low hand + Out of position, mehhhh I probs just fold pre. Hand looks a lot prettier than it is, but we don't have an Ace at all, which is always going to give us problems.
OTF as played, I think I take a card. If we raise, we just end up getting it in against wraps/NFD/sets too much.
IMO, question is never about raising for value, but whether raising as a semi-bluff is effective here. I don't think we get 2 folds enough of the time to make up for having <50% equity when called, which we would need to be able to justify raising. Rivermunky has cbet into 3 players on this board, so wraps/NFD/sets are all in his range. Reckon he's probs going with his pretty strong range fairly often and we're not in great shape vs that range.
Backdoor low means sometimes we're gonna make a flush occasionally and only win half the pot, too.
Post vanishes.
Marv. Yay new forum.
Still fold pre if you saw my original post and still flat flop. Cba to retype rest.
EDIT: Seems like if I'm editing the post after the hour edit timer expires, it deletes my post or something? How bizarre.
So PLO8 folk, feel free to tell me if I'm talking s**te.
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Dangler + Can't make low hand + Out of position, mehhhh I probs just fold pre because I'm a nit in PLO and PLO8. Preflop
OTF, I probs just take a card. If we raise, we just end up getting it in against wraps/FDs/sets too much, I suspect.
IMO, question is whether raising as a semi-bluff is effective, and I don't think we get 2 folds enough of the time to make up for <50% equity when called, which we would need to make it better than calling.
Rivermunky has cbet into 3 players on a high board, so wraps/NFD/sets are all in his range and probs not a whole lot of junk. Reckon he's probs going with it a decent amount and we're not in great shape vs that range.
Backdoor low means sometimes we're gonna make a flush and only win half the pot too if the guy flips over like AQJ2 with worse FD or something. So probs lose another % or 2 equity on those kind of spots.
It is a trivial fold preflop as there are a lot of things working against you with the hand...
1 - There is no low orientation.
2 - If you hit either of the flushes you 'should' only get real action from better hands.
3 - Even the straightening aspects of the hand could mean you end up with a pretty hand which is behind.
4 - you are OOP and extracting any decent value will be tough.
There just isn't any need to go there preflop.
As played...
Well it is tricky for all the reasons mentioned above.
The best we could really hope for is to be against dry aces, but even then, what is the other player calling with? The other player flat calling could well be drawing with the NFD which obviously really would put us in trouble.
Stacks are still too deep on the flop for me so I would just fold.
If the 2nd player had not flat called on the flop then it could well be possible we are up against dry aces (although dry aces could feel comfortable potting the flop into multiple players here if they also have the NFD). If we were HU on the flop then the decision is a little trickier and more of a case could be made for continuing. However the 2nd caller on the flop means our hand should be headed towards the muck.
P.S. If stacks were shallow and we found this flop is an unraised BB or if we had called a small bet versus a LP raiser... I would have trouble getting away from it on the flop as there is only a backdoor low so it would be likely we were playing to scoop and should at least be live in that scenario versus a lot of our opponent's range. It would also be a nice hand to reraise and apply pressure with in that instance.
Call pre isn't as bad people are saying. We are getting 5/1. Sure it's no where near a great hand, but similar to a hand such as j9o in holdem peeling pre marginal but fine.
We've flopped a monster here with top pair, up and down sd to nuts, 2nd nut fd and should be happy to put all of out chips in. I'd be raising the maximum to get rid of players with bare low draws. Which they will fold as they need runner runner low cards to complete.
Calling ok as well, keeps lower fds in the hand. Which we might be able to gii with on later streets.
With around 80 bbs I think calling and then shipping in these spots is so high risk that it would severely cap our long term ROI in tournaments - it is just gambling IMO. I agree you are aggressive chiggy and I have been known to be, well, umm, lets say 'creative' with my ranges too. However, you are a very skilled player chiggy, with your ability on the tables I think playing this spot would be disastrous. You would be able to find better spots so easily and use crisp reads and position to chip up with much less risk.