10nl River fold reg vs reg - your thoughts please

j_h_christ

Hello all. JH here. I am new to this site. Impressed with what i've seen so far, most are friendly and welcoming. So i played a really interesting hand last night, with so many inflection points that i have questions and would like reviews of both lines and all streets if possible...............but first a little preamble. 10nl cash down to three handed table breaking up towards end of session. I had been crushing and the regs were staying out of my way. Villain and i had played no more than 100 hands together, i hadn't once seen him get out of line, was only aggressive with a strong hand, and seemed to play mostly like a TAG regular. very low 3bet frequency, maybe 0% before this hand. We hadn't played a hand together of note and had mostly stayed out of each others' way.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
villamike	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£23.52
villain	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.20
	Your hole cards	J A
j_h_christ	Raise		£0.35	£0.50	£58.44
villamike	Fold
villain	Raise		£1.00	£1.50	£8.20
j_h_christ	Call		£0.75	£2.25	£57.69
Flop
		Q 9 A
villain	Bet		£1.20	£3.45	£7.00
j_h_christ	Call		£1.20	£4.65	£56.49
Turn
		9
villain	Check
j_h_christ	Check
River
		6
villain	Check
j_h_christ	Bet		£1.70	£6.35	£54.79
villain	All-in		£7.00	£13.35	£0.00
j_h_christ	Fold
villain	Muck
villain	Win		£7.44		£7.44
SR23	Return		£5.30	£0.61	£12.74

My first question about my play is the turn check.....did i bring the river check-raise upon myslef by checking turn? and should i instead bet this particular turn when i pick up more equity with the flush draw?

We spoke about the hand in chat afterwards and villain swears blind that he had JJ, in-game i put him on AK AQ or KK or 1 combo AA, as this would 3bet pre, cbet flop and check turn. The only hand i see valueXRing river is a trickily-played QQ or a 66 that got there. If he did have JJ as he swore, then does it make sense to turn it into a bluff when it still works as a bluff catcher against our missed broadways that want to float flop X turn and bluff river? Any thoughts appreciated on this reg on reg violence which i found really interesting and have no idea what the best play is on the river. I folded the best hand on this occasion but is it still correct against what i perceive villains range to be, which is a strong one consisting of mostly hands that beat mine both preflop and by the rver?

JH

Essexphil

I should start by saying that I'm a lot better at MTTs than cash, so would welcome comments from better cash players than me.

My feeling is that you can never check that turn card-you have a pair, with good kicker, and a flush draw. Also with his pre-flop reraise, he is going to have KK/JJ/1010 quite often. The only doubt is the size of the turn bet-too small, and you may have got bluffed off in the same way...

Having said that, I would never have played JJ in that way...

Duesenberg

Welcome JH.

Firstly, I can't resist the urge to suggest you ask your dad - I've heard he knows everything there is to know .

Secondly, I'd recommend you leave out the bit out about the villain telling you he had JJ in future posts like this - people can be too results orientated and knowing the outcome may well effect the nature of the advice you receive.

As for the hand itself, I think you played it perfectly but for the fact that I personally would be calling off the river re-raise (after a sigh and a big gulp!).

Your check on the turn seems ideal to me. A significant part of the villains 3bet range here is AK/AQ which he can credibly represent by check/raising on the turn (as well as AA, QQ and 99 of course), which puts you in a terrible spot should you choose to re-open the action. With top pair on this board you already have a ton of showdown value and checking the turn also guarantees you'll get to fully realise the equity of your flush draw. It also keeps your opponents bluffs in his range that would give up to your turn bet but be tempted to lead rivers in the hope of moving you off all your Qx type hands and your missed draws (JT, KJ, etc.). When checked to you again on the river I think you have a clear value betting situation and I really like your sizing - it's perfect to get crying calls from hands like KK, KQ, and QJs.

The river re-raise just makes such little sense as all the super strong/nutted hands which he is repping are generally going to look to get whatever value they can by leading out here to get calls from your Ax and Qx combos - especially given that your turn check suggests you're not super strong, the 6 on the river changes nothing, and you're therefore likely to be checking back the river with a pretty high frequency too. It just looks too much like air to me or something like A5s trying to get you off a chop. If he really did have JJ, that is also one of the absolute worst hands he could choose to do this with too given that he blocks so many of the missed draw type hands you may be bluffing with come the river.

Good luck and let us know what your dad thinks .

MynaFrett

^^^^^^^^

Second only to groggy in hand analysis contributions

MynaFrett

I would love to see SR23 describe this hand from his point of view - maybe he expects _christ to bet all of his Ax on the turn for "value and protection" (perhaps correctly against population but not a great assumption versus better opponents) and then decides that _christ shows up with a lot of KQ going for thin value on river as played and decides he can get this to fold (?)

MynaFrett

Flip. I also meant to say hello and welcome j_h_c.

SR23

Hi JH. Almost got to the end of the HH leaving out my sn but np whatsoever.

So:

I 100% did have JJ but can never paste hands successfully (because I play in browser?). I agree with you that the line looks odd/perhaps bad and at the time, after taking a stab on the flop, was pretty much resigned to letting it go.

However, after the check back on the turn and thinnish-value-looking river bet I felt I could get you to fold a ton of hands that would flat a 3b pre IP and play the rest of the hand as you did: AT/KQ/QJ/AXs - maybe even KK and AK.

I thought I could discount tons of near-nutted hands in your range after turn/river and pf action where-as I could have a few (nonstandard AA/QQ would fit w/pre-flop play and a planned c/r on turn that was thwarted but delayed until river). Also, have close to zero sdv after you call flop, and suspecting that you know that "no-one check-raises rivers without the nuts at low stakes" I just fancied having a bit of a lump.

I think considering your image of me it's actually a decent fold. Hopefully see you around on the tables, peace out.

benc

I think you played it well considering info available about villain, the only slight consideration is that if villain is solid his 3bet range may be a little wider now it's 3 handed which may mean a few more hands can be turned into bluffs on the river j10s k10s for example.

If villain has a very low 3bet frequency then checking turn makes sense as the top end of his range (AA,QQ) might check to trap in this spot and ak/aq for pot control, so we would be drawing to a flush which may not even be good on the river or value owning ourselves.

From a value bet point of view on the turn we will maybe get two streets only from a10 and kq but if villain is solid probably not, and i can't imagine we get two streets from 10s,Js they probably get check folded on the turn alot, so checking back means we are probably gaining more value against the part of his range that we beat in this spot that will always call river after we check turn ( maybe we should be increasing our river sizing because of this)


River I think bet fold is the best option as at this point to get value from KK A10s KQ maybe Js/10s sigh call after turn check and you can confidently assume the stronger part of his range that either trapped turn (AA,QQ,A9s) or pot control turn (AK AQ) will have led river for value.

The line from villain doesn't make sense but without some information to indicate he is capable of turning bottom end of a very strong 3bet range into bluffs (which I would assume most 10nl regs wouldn't) i think it would be spewy to call.

mcglynn07

jh Christ
I think your call pre is fine , I think flop call is fine yet when you get to the turn and your hand is at its strongest 2 pair with a nut flush draw and you are checking kind of invites the river bluff you have played your hand like you have a pair / top pair

On the turn you lose to one combo of aces 3x pocket queens 6x combos of aq and 4 combos of a9 and 6x combos of q9 ( means more probable you would be up against aq or a9 or q9 that pocket aces pocket queens or pocket nines )

Do you think your opponent is going to check a better two pair or a set with a straight draw and a flush draw on the board on the turn? Pretty Unlikely he can also have KT a worse ace or a queen or a flush draw that busts on the river.
And you have seen him play his good hands strongly but that is not clear sometimes when we are in a hand.

Your equity on flop against the top 25% of hands is 75% vs 24%
Your equity on turn against the top 25% of hands is 77% vs 22%
Your equity on turn against the top 15% of hands is 74% vs 25%
Your equity on turn against the top 5% of hands is 58% vs 41%

This means you are a massive fav against his range at this point in the hand, equities can be found at propokertools.com simulations

The best thing is that you are checking your lines after play which is the best way to improve
Good luck at the tables danny

j_h_christ

Hi y'all thanks for the advices and feedbacks. A lot to digest. Much appreciated

SR23 it appears i let the cat out the bag, dang that last line of code! See yer all at the tables glgl

j_h_christ

Duesenberg - God knows what my Dad thinks about the hand lololol