BH Tourny should i call all in Wehave all cashed at this point i think there are 18 left

mcglynn07

4 handed table I'm chip leader with 42bb I have been very active opp have played straightforward due to stack depth I am UTG with AsQs BB/Villain has 14 bb SB has 12 bb other player has 11bb

1) is open shoving bad here due to opp stack sizes?

2) I raise min and BB calls to the flop pot is 5400 villain has 17330
flop is Ks7h8s he checks I cbet 1bb and he shoves 17330 I have to call 14930 to win 25130 getting1.68 to 1 I need 37% against his range which includes big kings , sets and draws like straight draw flush draw like 9s8s.

After doing the math it feels like a call but do I really need to gamble or wait for a better spot? It did not really affect my stack as I was not being risk averse but to call it off with a draw and ace high seems stupid as he is never bluffing it feels kind of spewey?

Any help appreciated Thanks Danny

K0BAYASHl

Why the min bet on the flop? I’m doing a 1/2 pot bet on flop or a little more and then stacking off. Your min bet flop doesn’t really achieve much, just shows weakness.

I Don’t think open shoving is so bad in this spot, but I guess it would be better to see a flop. And with AQS I am liking this flop.

Essexphil

1. Case to be made for shoving or raising. However, your raise should be 3x or 4x, not min. My aim would be either to get it in pre-flop, or get it in on any flop

2. You've made life unnecessarily hard by betting too small twice. Because you look so weak, a lot of people would shove on you there with any 2, and many others with any draw. It is still a call, but (IMO) it should have been much easier

mcglynn07

very true about the bet sizes , I appreciate the comments and yes I should have been pushing them around more to get more chips and yes when I make bigger bets and hit I win more so very valid points guys and I think its a call and even now I don't mind a shove but ideally want to see flops with my stack thanks EssexPhil and Kobayashi

MattBates

I would be mixing up min raising and jam with a wide range of hands here given the other stack sizes. Your flop bet makes your hand look a lot weaker than it actually is and I would be calling but would of made a normal sized c bet with the intention of calling it off.

With their stack sizes compared to ours if we lose a hand we are still in a great position and should be able to put on maximum pressure against them.

mcglynn07

thanks Matt for the input and thougts danny

reeler

I'm raising 3x or 4x pre with the intention of half pot bet on the flop and ready to call the shove. always have a plan before you make your move you cant just raise and then say what next. that flop makes your decision so much easier. when you half pot bet flop. your more or less all in any way and you have him covered , he might also fold and you take pot down so you are giving yourself 2 ways to win

MattBates

A couple of people have suggested it, what is the thought process behind 3x or 4x raising? Are we expecting to get many calls from these stack sizes if we min raise? Would we be 3 or 4x raising and folding to a jam?

reeler

I'm calling a jam if I raise 3x and he has 12 bigs its a call all day long . I want him to jam

Angmar2626

Have noticed that both players who mentioned 3x/4x tend to open to that sizing in general rather than 2-2.5x Off-topic (apologies) but would be excellent to hear thoughts behind regularly choosing that sizing, particularly on <40bb stacks. No worries if you don't want to talk too much about your game though!

Essexphil

I am older than most players. I am a little tighter pre-flop than most players. Consequently, I want the pots that I do play to be larger than average, to compensate for that. That is the main reason.

The second reason is this. Most players play a very laggy game (compared to when i started), and want to see a lot of pots cheaply. I bet higher, and 3 bet more often, precisely to deny letting players get what they want-if people's mind set is too play small and wide, they are not going to want to play for stacks...one of the first rules of poker is to play the opposite style to others at your table.

I am constantly working on my shorter stack game, particularly since an excellent player (rightly) criticised it during a drunken night in Vegas.

Angmar2626

Excellent post ty

Angmar2626

Do you find you burn more when you get jammed on and have to fold? Or because you're opening tighter range is that not a consideration because you're mostly opening hands that are strong enough to call off?

Itsover4u

im going to be jamming 45% of hands in this spot and min raising 45% very few folds in my range in this particular spot.

Its and ICM nightmare for these players to be risking getting knocked out before the others in this spot but if they are aware of that is a different matter.

AQ would almost always be a Jam and we hope we get a call as it is very much the top percentile of our jam range in this spot. Our image is aggressive and we probably get snapped by a10 aj a9 suited (probaby more suited aces) and just about every pair.

Min raising range needs to be balanced between min bet folds and min bet calls. for instance if I was to know I was going to be dealt 10 10, jj, qq and kk in a random order of hands I would be looking to open shove twice and min bet twice in order to stop myself becoming exploitable. These would be mixed in with all the other hands I would open shove and min raise.

If we were soley min raise folding or open shoving monsters its clear to see how easy it would be for opponents to exploit our play.

Sorry if this is not typed out too well or does not make much sense I kinda rushed through it

MattBates

It is 18 players left btw so don't think ICM comes into this as much. However I still think it is a great spot to be fairly aggressive but does depend on opponents tendencies.

Essexphil

Do you find you burn more when you get jammed on and have to fold? Or because you're opening tighter range is that not a consideration because you're mostly opening hands that are strong enough to call off?

Very stack-size and player dependant, although my hands are strong enough to call quite a lot of the time. Important to be aware of who may jam light...

mcglynn07

Great points raised here. My plan for the hand was non existent to be truthful. I was hitting well and the truth about not 3x or 4x ing it was to deny oponents a read on my holdings. But I think 2.4 or 2.5 x is probably better so im not wasting chips if I raise fold pre. Also I will be trying to mix a few hands just to try open shoving and antagonise and get the wrong reaction from people who spite call through frustration. Danny

Itsover4u

MattBates said:

It is 18 players left btw so don't think ICM comes into this as much. However I still think it is a great spot to be fairly aggressive but does depend on opponents tendencies.

Yeah thats my mistake I thought this was a FT - my response is not to relevant with 18 left unless it was the bubble of a major etc

LnarinOO

icm isnt so much a factor here with 18 left, i think this is very standard min open/call. we should be pretty aggro given stack sizes and as a counter to us opening wide, wider re-steals would mean villain will show with a lot worse hands.

betting small on this board texture doesnt achieve too much. were not going to want to bet JJ or QQ so splitting range into to bets and checks with larger sizings seems better.

as our small bet does make our hand seem weaker id never be folding here anyway our hands way too strong to fold now.