Whats the play here?

PKRPar

Ok so I managed to build up a decent stack early on and then this happened;

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
whogoes	Small blind		100.00	100.00	9985.00
amazingted	Big blind		200.00	300.00	11568.25
	Your hole cards	J 10
cupsauce	Fold
Jim_RM	Fold
BRADERS72	Call		200.00	500.00	14600.00
PKRPar	Raise		554.00	1054.00	9942.75
whogoes	Call		454.00	1508.00	9531.00
amazingted	Call		354.00	1862.00	11214.25
BRADERS72	Call		354.00	2216.00	14246.00
Flop
		J 2 10
whogoes	Check
amazingted	Check
BRADERS72	Check
PKRPar	Bet		1108.00	3324.00	8834.75
whogoes	Call		1108.00	4432.00	8423.00
amazingted	Fold
BRADERS72	Fold
Turn
		8
whogoes	Check
PKRPar	Bet		2216.00	6648.00	6618.75
whogoes	Call		2216.00	8864.00	6207.00
River
		4
whogoes	All-in		6207.00	15071.00	0.00
PKRPar	Call		6207.00	21278.00	411.75
whogoes	Show	K Q
PKRPar	Show	J 10
whogoes	Win	Flush to the King	21278.00		21278.00

Do I find the fold? or is it just "one of those things"??

Thoughts on play welcomed

madprof

To be fair, 'whogoes' has the open ended straight on the flop, so with the flush draw after the turn , you both played it well-just unlucky methinks...unless if you shoved after the flop, maybe he would have re-thought and folded...depends on a) chipstack and b) how close to cashing.... Subject to a/b) think I would have shoved post flop..

Angmar2626

If we want to iso, would prefer at least the full 3x pre. We're blocking a lot of the hands we're trying to fold out and even on the button would prefer to have something with a bit more playability like JTs.

Hard to fold the river when you have a club blocker and with that stack to pot ratio. I think we should think about our sizings postflop and how it's going to set up the spr for the river, rather than just mashing the half pot button each street

Unlucky runout though!

hhyftrftdr

Think the hand is mostly fine until river.

Pre, could argue for raising a tad more, though we have position and a hand that can flop well so its not a disaster if the pot is a little smaller, it just means we might encourage the blinds to come along and get the domino effect, so should play quite disciplined when we only flop a modest piece.

Think the sizing is decent on the flop (though I'd try and shy away from actually using the half pot button). It's a pretty dry board however hands that stick around are gonna have reasonable equity (89, Q9, KQ plus maybe some gutters with a back door FD)

Turn isn't a bad card, yes it completes Q9 but drawing hands like 89 now have a bigger piece of the action and hands like 8T/J8 are drawing almost dead but will be reluctant to fold now. For this reason I might go bigger and ensure we're getting maximum value from the made hands and also charging any random draws and pair/draws the biggest price, maybe just a few more hundred on top.

River is grim and this is where the hand goes on its head. Population tendencies would suggest this is rarely a bluff. Occasionally you might get someone playing AA/KK cute and then they just explode on the river, but again this doesn't happen too often. In my experience when people c/c down and then donk jam the river, its cos they have a big hand and are afraid of you checking back. It's not an easy pass however we don't really beat any worse value hands that might take this line, so I think we can find a fold here (more concerned by 22 tbh and I think if you had JJJ or TTT then its a snap off)

LnarinOO

pre flop- i think raising is good to iso limper, we definitely want to raise all of our hands we decide to play here but I would raise sightly more to try and get heads up not multiway . its not because we think we have the best hand but it gives us the initiative and sets us up to play across all boards with an uncapped range post flop. I would say however that if the table has been playing loose and we expect to go multiway then tighten up your range however we are in position so dont mind it at all.

flop is obviously a good board for us and as we have gone multiway its a clear bet. sizing is good no need to go any bigger or smaller and it will easily get stacks in comfortably by river and this is our aim. once called by SB we can try to work out his range/hand strenght etc....

i would automatically take out JJ-AA based on pre flop (who wants to take them hands multi way OOP vs a limp and iso?) as we block the two top sets, its very hard for villain to have any monsters on this flop, even over calling 22 would be optimistic at best and definitely -EV.
his showdown or marginal hands on this board will be strong flop pairs, hands like AJ or AT that he may of called from SB and again having TJ we remove some of them combos too. then the last continue range is straight draws, starting KQs then less likely 89s (remembering they over called SB... not saying it doesnt happen just things are more or less likely and when you build ranges and in decision making, these are crucial factors.

on the turn we still have a clear value bet, before i choose sizing i would see how turn affects villians range, only nuts are Q9-79 and not too likely based on position but not impossible i guess. all marignal showdown have got worse and the draws have increased to straight draws and flush draws or a lot of the time both.
looking at this, even though 1/2 pot gets stacks in easily on the river, lets see what bet size is best here...

given range i dont like small bets, theres nothing he going to have a tough time with If we bet small. i still think he folds Tx etc so thats out the question. 1/2 pot is ok as we get decent value from Jx and draws but i think as we block a lot of his pair continue range plus he called from SB this is not a wide range of hands.
i actually like larger sizing here on the turn and it accomplishes a few things..
if villain does have Jx he's most likely only going to call turn and fold river, so if we are not getting the river value it make sense to get more OTT. also with his draws we put them in tougher spots and sometimes get hands with good equity share to fold. for these reasons id go bigger on the turn, charge the draws more and who knows once SPR is lower sometimes they might not give up Jx etc....

on the river, everything has changed. we do have our best bluff catcher but what bluff do they have would be my question? none of their marginal hands would now shove for value so you beat no value bets. Looking at how we constructed their range from having no monsters on flop or turn to potentially having rivered monsters with their continue range. what we have to do now is decide how we proceed. its highly possible given our read that we are beat but what i would do is ask myself if they ever have worse then my hand.? if we are sure on the player type and sure they can never be bluffing then we can make an exploitable fold, personally on sky poker this is rarely going to be a bluff but If your ever unsure on the player type or your playing against good aggressive balanced players then were gonna have to look at where we sit within our own range, work out our pot/odds and defence range and call with some hands to make us unexploitable..

JJBinks

Hi PKRPar,

Really good feedback above.

I might take a different approach -

I would try and make the hand easier to play -

I think the Turn sizing is the most important part of the hand - the reason I say that is the SPR (stack to pot ratio) vs Villains range, pair + combo draws ect... on the turn as the hand started multi way 5 handed and now we are HU on that board coming in to the turn.

So given we think Villain may have picked up some increased equity on the turn I would be betting bigger, you bet 2216.00 in to 6648.00 pot, I would go 4.5k to 5.5k even go for an over bet spot.

For two reasons, we get max value vs the part of the range above the times he calls and now the river becomes some what irrelevant as we are now priced in never folding given the price on the river.

If his draws brick the river you wont be getting any value anyway unless he donk bluff shoves in to you as he did when he did hit his hand, if he calls and gets there you can be happy you done your job on the turn and got max value and move on.

don't be worried about making bigger sizing's on scary boards, you can go 1.5x pot even 2x pot vs recreational players to manipulate the pot size to suit, and gain a massive amount more value in hands.

you will be surprised how often they call as they are just playing hands in a vacuum with the board, and not considering pot odds ect., the reason we stay away from bluffing recreational players is because they don't fold.

Not saying villain is recreational player Its just we don't know so we can play as if he is until he shows different.

(as a side note over bet ranges are very effective vs regs to if used well so go for it.)

as played I'm folding river,

as a wise man once said to me, if you have never folded the best hand you are not folding enough.

gl

Binks

Tikay10

Crikey, some great replies there, well done Chaps.

PKRPar

All excellent replies appreciated guys and will take the turn betting in particular into account.