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Bluff/Bluff Catch or fold
The_eggs
Member Posts: 57
Any thoughts on this spot would be great 
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ****** | Small blind | 50.00 | 50.00 | 9875.00 | |
| ****** | Big blind | 100.00 | 150.00 | 11075.00 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| SCHEMER | Fold | ||||
| The_eggs | Raise | 250.00 | 400.00 | 7590.00 | |
| MattBates | Fold | ||||
| spartan300 | Fold | ||||
| ****** | Call | 200.00 | 600.00 | 9675.00 | |
| ****** | Call | 150.00 | 750.00 | 10925.00 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| ****** | Check | ||||
| ****** | Check | ||||
| The_eggs | Check | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| ****** | Bet | 300.00 | 1050.00 | 9375.00 | |
| ****** | Call | 300.00 | 1350.00 | 10625.00 | |
| The_eggs | Call | 300.00 | 1650.00 | 7290.00 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| ****** | Check | ||||
| ****** | Bet | 900.00 | 2550.00 | 9725.00 | |
Comments
Interesting spot, particularly as our blockers work against us on the turn (blocking basically a load of the stuff we want them to have (KJ/K10 combo's and obviously K high flush draws) and we don't block any of their value (only KQ) but can work in our favour on that exact river as you point out
Calling facing this river bet doesn't seem particularly good over all though as we block KQ which might be the worst made hand villain could possibly show up with here and we only beat some unlikely combo's of 75, 74 and 54 (and these combo's in diamonds get there of course)... he can't even have J10d which could conceivably take this line and decide to bluff river. He is also in a really bad spot to be flatting the small blinds turn lead with some 6x and some small to middling pocket pairs but I suppose it is possible that he can still show up with some of these. If he has somehow flatted turn with some 6x and pp, he will likely cap your range at KQ, KK weak Ax at best (once you've checked back flop and flatted turn) and could well see this river as a great card to turn these into bluffs now. The thing is (as your range is perceived to be weak/capped here now) he can conceivably bet most of his Ax for value as well. He also has aces up, sets and flushes in his range though and you might not be getting much of this to fold as played...
This flop is almost a mandatory c bet, or will be perceived as such, with our range in this spot versus the blinds (we have AAA, AK and AQ and they don't/shouldn't have very often) so you will be expected to be c betting here at a high frequency and when you don't they might immediately take all the strong value hands (sets, aces up and AK/AQ/AJ) out of your range along with your flush draws and stuff like KQ/KJ/K10/QJ/Q10/J10/J9 which is significant on certain runouts when a lot of these combo's that population might expect you to c bet in these spots end up making possible straights and flushes. I think checking back some of these hands in these spots can be a good way to ensure that we can still show up with some disguised nutted hands on certain runouts (and protects our "capped" range when we don't c bet flop) but population probably doesn't see it this way and won't expect you to be able to show up with straights and flushes very often as played in these spots.
So your bluff here with the nut blocker might not get two pair to fold, he might think AxJd is a good hand to bet/call with... he might not even fold any ace sometimes as you suggested because your line will look so random. You could conceivably have some flopped and turned sets but checking back flopped sets here would not be particularly good given how often we are expected to c bet this flop with our range and how deep effective stacks are and you would be expected to raise turn if you had taken this line with a flopped set or turned Queens.
If you have history with villain, or he has seen that you can show up with flushes here, then I think it's a great spot to take with the Kd though.
Given that we are over calling turn (calling a bet and a call) you could make a case for just folding this combo of KK on turn but I think it's fine to call here given how deep we are- we can be ahead of both of them still sometimes, although unlikely, there's still the chance that river checks through and we're good or we improve to a set of kings on the river and potentially win a big pot against two pair or set over set sometimes.
...My first bash at one of these. It's daunting with the likes of @FeelGroggy and @Duesenberg knocking about
I hope this contribution is ok for you @The_eggs and I hope the good players don't rip this to shreds or it might be my first and last
the only thing i would differ from is when you say cbetting this is mandatory. i dont think this i a good board to bet your whole range tbh, they both have a lot of Ax for one and also if we bet our enitre range, think how many hands were actually betting, yes we have all the nuts like you say, but we also have all the garbage too, but if we only bet the nutted part and give up the rest then were easily exploitable and weak when we check, but if we split our range into bets and checks we can strengthen our checking range (by balancing with nuts) and ppl cant just run us over when we check. basically if were betting everything here, were betting too much then ppl can counter us by floating and taking away on later streets as our entire continue range will be too weak to bet multiple barrels or stand up to aggression down the hand.
as played just fold river
not many worse hands can call and were not going to deny any equity by betting so it doesn't achieve too much.
id rather bet the worst and best part and have a stronger check back range with Ax included..
also 3 ways were even less likey to get folds OTF
Am I denying equity to any hands that I currently beat that could get there, does my hand need protection?
Do I want to build a big pot because I think I have the strongest hand?
In my head I answered no to both of these so I checked. I wouldn't want to get raised on flop and it gives me a hand that allows me to call loads on the turn against probes.
I think it being multi way slightly makes ranges a bit more narrow.
Thanks Myna and Lnarin it has given me some stuff to think about.
In fairness to @MynaFrett, I think his point was more about how this flop would be perceived to be a mandatory cbet for the pre flop raiser by our opponents, rather than an outright suggestion that we should be firing out on all A high flops as the pfr. I completely concur with checking back KK here and would also be checking some of my weaker aces too. You'll induce a lot of turn probes this way which ultimately has a much higher EV than potentially folding out all the stuff you're already beating on the flop.
The rest of the hand was played fine imo and folding the river seems best. I think it's very rare the small blind is leading out here as a bluff and you are not beating any of his value range with KK. Despite having some good blockers, as played, it's really hard for you to have many hands which want to convincingly raise this river for value, with the possible exception of TT or KJ. You'll be getting snap called too frequently and the small blinds hand looks so much like some random flush or either AT or QT to me.
I raised to 2000 and got the fold for anyone interested
Been a good read, this one, think I've learned something from every post on the thread. Mainly that you all play way too good.