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Surely he has to call ?

TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,686
in Strategy
Hi guys me again with the latest installment of Lets all help "The Edge" understand this game better.

Its a local casino cash game and the blinds are £0.50 / £1.00 its 9 handed and pretty much everyone is 200bb deep.
My holding in the bb is 7s 8s

Its straddled to £2 and the flop is 5s 6s 9s at which point Its all I can do to stop from stripping off and Gangnam styling it naked around the blackjack tables. Instead i preserve my usual poker face and wonder how to start getting the money in when the table does it for me and incredibly by the time its on me to act its £40 to go. Five seats down and 4 active

I flat call with the nuts and then almost have an apoplexy when the As hits on the turn and button almost sighs with relief, coz now I know he's got the nut Fl.

I check and utg bets about £90 (approx. half his stack), mp flats(half his stack), button flats(25% of his stack), I flat(25% of mine).

River card is a brick utg checks, mp shoves all in button calls and I shove over the top all in utg folds and after an age the button shows Ks Qs and mucks. M.P. had just a straight.

Yes it was a great pot but why did he fold the nut fl there when hed already put so much in.??

Yours in poker

Mark
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Comments

  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    What other hand do you play that way?
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  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,686
    I see your point Matt thank you.

    Its just that I thought that Id played it like i was on a draw and then trying to rep the Nut fl on the river. As hes getting almost 10 /1 to commit the last of his stack with the actual nut flush I thought maybe he would or even should do it. after all he only has to be right a very small % of the time to make this profitable.

    I suppose its an object lesson in remembering that just because I think along certain lines doesn't mean the player next to me shares that mindset. Although to be honest once he calls the mp shove I really don't see him not calling my all in and took it as a green light to go.

    Like I said it was a great pot to win and I think he lost the least based on how it was played by all positions so maybe a good play by him to not go bust.

    Yours in poker

    Mark
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  • FALLGUY64FALLGUY64 Member Posts: 4
    its not rocket science in said situation with a push and an over push for him suspect one of you had the goods,youed of been better just calling the shove and maybe then he might well of called or even pushed,youll never know now.thats poker.
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  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,686
    I was last to act fallguy hence the all in. If I just call it goes to showdown. Was trying to squeeze the last bit of value. I didn't leave any value on the table really, it's just me being greedy.
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 169,525
    TheEdge949 said:

    I was last to act fallguy hence the all in. If I just call it goes to showdown. Was trying to squeeze the last bit of value. I didn't leave any value on the table really, it's just me being greedy.

    Think you played the river correctly.

    Perhaps a little pedantic, but if you had the absolute stone cold nuts - & you did - and were last to act, I think you are obliged to bet on the end, rather than call.
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  • TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,686
    Thanks Tikay. The ruling where I play is that you only have to bet the nuts if you are the last player to act and theres been no action that round. Although if a player didn't raise with the absolute stone nuts from last position I would still want to know why.

    Yours in poker

    Mark
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    TheEdge949 said:

    I see your point Matt thank you.

    Its just that I thought that Id played it like i was on a draw and then trying to rep the Nut fl on the river. As hes getting almost 10 /1 to commit the last of his stack with the actual nut flush I thought maybe he would or even should do it. after all he only has to be right a very small % of the time to make this profitable.

    I suppose its an object lesson in remembering that just because I think along certain lines doesn't mean the player next to me shares that mindset. Although to be honest once he calls the mp shove I really don't see him not calling my all in and took it as a green light to go.

    Like I said it was a great pot to win and I think he lost the least based on how it was played by all positions so maybe a good play by him to not go bust.

    Yours in poker

    Mark

    He might be getting 10/1 on his money but if he's behind 100% of the time, and lets be honest judging by how the betting has gone he's always behind, then it's a very trivial fold.

    If you're check calling £90 turn bets in a multi way pot in a live 100nl game, its very hard to be repping a draw.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    MP having a straight here is exactly the sort of reason why I would never fold a nut flush getting 10/1 to call. You would have to turn over the straight flush for me to be capable of folding.

    Slightly joking; it does depend on how well I know the villain. I'd have to know with certainty though that you could only have the straight here.

    Seeing that villain is capable of folding the nut flush though getting insane odds would give me a good way to exploit him in future... you could play a hand like Ts8s the same way here knowing that you beat MP but lose to BTN but that because you block the straight flush he will fold.
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  • weedgiweedgi Member Posts: 103
    is the only way to get all the money in and called is to shove all in on turn as horrible as i may seem?
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  • WNPWNP Member Posts: 8
    edited February 2019
    I think he's folding very light here (but I'm still learning, so take it with a pinch of salt!)

    I'm just trying to think what your range could be in this situation. You called preflop, so probably not looking at AA or something similar which would have given you Trip Aces etc, even if you did, you probably fold them post flop.

    You could have pocket 9's and be set mining, but given the coordinated board and the amount of action before you, you probably have to fold post flop with that kind of hand, same as the trip aces.

    You could have a high flush (Jx) and be thinking that was good enough to beat any straights and other flushes. Only the Kx or Qx flush would beat that (which he has), so you could be fairly confident that you win a large portion of the time with the Jx flush.

    So there's about 7 hand that he beats (if you assume J with each of the other suited cards not yet accounted for - from his POV assuming one of yours is a J), and only one hand which has him dominated. Which is the hand you actually had.

    So there was about a 12.5% chance you had the nuts and he was beat. Lets be generous and boost that up to say 20%. The odds were about 10/1. So once every 5 hands, he's losing his stake, but the other 4, he's winning back 10 times his stake.

    Even if he assumed you had the nuts 50% of the time. That losing his stake once every 2 times, and winning ten times his stake the other. Still massively +EV.

    That's my take on it anyway, if anyone disagrees then please let me know!

    Edit: Or maybe he just had a very good read on you and knew you wouldn't go that big without the absolute nuts.
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