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GTO solvers.

waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,093
edited August 2019 in Poker Chat
Would like to know what peoples thoughts are regarding GTO solvers such as Piosolver and the like.

I can certainly see the benefits for the high(est) stakes cash and HU regs on Sky but it seems a bit overkill for Sky MTTs, especially as a lot of hand review videos on youtube etc. involve the hand being analysed using a GTO solver. Would I be right in thinking that?

Do any of the MTT regs, particularly the high stakes regs, use a GTO solver as part of their study? Is it something you should be looking at getting if you want to improve or is it only something you should really be looking at if you were playing super high stakes on Stars for example?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Comments

  • Angmar2626Angmar2626 Member Posts: 886
    1) What is optimal for villain in this spot
    2) How is villain deviating from that
    3) How can I exploit that
    4) To what extent should I exploit that

    If you don't know no.1 then it's pretty tough to do the others. That said, there are plenty of videos that show PIO examples and training sites that cover a lot of concepts without you actually having to run sims yourself.

    I think for low stakes on Sky it would be useful to have a few general ideas, but your time and money would be much better spent improving other areas :)

  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,093

    1) What is optimal for villain in this spot
    2) How is villain deviating from that
    3) How can I exploit that
    4) To what extent should I exploit that

    If you don't know no.1 then it's pretty tough to do the others. That said, there are plenty of videos that show PIO examples and training sites that cover a lot of concepts without you actually having to run sims yourself.

    I think for low stakes on Sky it would be useful to have a few general ideas, but your time and money would be much better spent improving other areas :)

    Yeah that was my thinking. There are so many hand reviews using a solver available and I assumed that would be enough to give you a basic idea. Curious to know how many MTT regs on Sky have forked out for PIO etc. and whether it's really beneficial for the majority of Sky MTTs?
  • TWRAMYEPTWRAMYEP Member Posts: 351
    edited August 2019
    Some interesting points on solvers:

    Podcast 75 @ time stamp: 26:14
    https://carroters.podbean.com/
  • FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 843
    waller02 said:

    Would like to know what peoples thoughts are regarding GTO solvers such as Piosolver and the like.

    I can certainly see the benefits for the high(est) stakes cash and HU regs on Sky but it seems a bit overkill for Sky MTTs, especially as a lot of hand review videos on youtube etc. involve the hand being analysed using a GTO solver. Would I be right in thinking that?

    Yes, you would be right in thinking that. I would guess that the amount of sky MTT regs who use PIO is very small indeed. 100bb regulars the number of those who use it will be much larger; the higher you go the bigger % of the pool will use it. Given the standardised nature of cash games, i.e always playing 100bb deep, playing a technically stronger strategy is going to yield much more money long term than MTT's where stack depths are never consistent. You can get away with not using solvers at either format, but you certainly don't need to them at Sky MTT's. A lot of the better mtt regs are a far cry from playing a PIO approved game, but play a good exploitative game that yields very good results against a player pool that includes a lot of recreational players and regs who aren't going to punish you for deviations. @MattBates would be a good example of a player that fits this criteria.
    waller02 said:

    Would like to know what peoples thoughts are regarding GTO solvers such as Piosolver and the like.

    Do any of the MTT regs, particularly the high stakes regs, use a GTO solver as part of their study? Is it something you should be looking at getting if you want to improve or is it only something you should really be looking at if you were playing super high stakes on Stars for example?

    Any thoughts appreciated.

    I think using solvers is unnecessary until you want to make the transition from a high level of poker to an elite level of poker. I think talking strategy with other aspiring players and consuming good poker content (and indirectly learning from PIO solver that way) is going to be a MUCH more efficient way of learning for most/all players, and probably necessary before you can competently use PIO. From my understanding PIO is only as good as the inputs you give it, you need to be at a certain skill level to even benefit from it. FWIW I am yet to buy PIO myself and I do okay :)
  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    I doubt many MTT regs are using solvers. Agree with what the Groggster said especially about being better ways to study if your mainly playing sky.
  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,093
    Thanks all. I did think it seemed a bit ott.

    @FeelGroggy doing "ok" is like saying Man City might be able to beat a premiership side, on a good day.

    Enough said for me :)
  • kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,601
    edited December 2019
    I've never used a solver but as the days go by you start to think that one day we will ALL have to. It is indeed a tragedy or to some people an evolution. Check out this amazing post from another forum regarding the matter.

    'This is what the game theorists would call a tragedy of the commons situation, aka prisoners dillema. A situation in which the actions that members of the group need to take to maximize their own EV, hurt the EV of all other members in the group. As a consequence if all players go for max EV we end up in a equilibrium where everyone has low EV. And since the main goal of individuals is EV maximization, we often end up in such bad equilibria.

    This problem occures all the time in nature and human history. Any time individual agents are competing in a group setting this problem occurs. It is the reason free markets fail. Evolution came up with a number of solutions. These solutions are aimed at introducing new incentives (punishments and rewards) into the system such that hurtfull actions for the group are no longer +EV for the individual. Examples of these solutions include the concept of a ruler who punishes individuals that hurt the groupEV.
    If the market for violence is left completely free everyone would end up killing each other, since it would often be +ev to murder someone and take their belongings. However the resulting society would be -ev for everyone. So we introduce a regulator into the market that punishes those who commit violence. Suddenly it becomes -ev to kill your elderly neighbour since you would go to jail.

    Social shaming is another solution. When doug polk creates a video about some angleshooter, he is defending the groupEV by adding the threat of social punishment to all potential angleshooters. Angleshooting might be +ev if no1 finds out. However with the threat of social punishment it suddenly might become -ev (unless you are already shun from the community in which case you have nothing to fear). Of course evolution didnt design Doug Polk to waste his time creating youtube videos when he could be doing +ev things instead! So we, the group, give him what he deserves, social credit in the form of youtube likes and respect. thus changing his incentives and making it +ev for him to create the video.

    Emotional states like anger are another solution. If some guy steals 1$ from you, it is -ev for you to try to chase him, not worth the time. However if he knows you are not gonna chase him, he might be more likely to try to steal from you. So in the equilibrium everyone steals the 1$ and no1 chases. The way out of this prisoners dillema is by introducing emotions into the system, temporary states of mind in which it is impossible for you to behave rationally. Whereas normally you would care only about your own EV, if you are under the influence of these emotions you can no longer think clearly ,you are forced to care only about hurting the ev of the other player. This leads to a new equilbrium in which everyone chases and no1 steals.'

  • kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,601
    Sky feels like the last bastion of hope where everyone is not part of the **** matrix.
  • TOOTRUETOOTRUE Member Posts: 193
    I know what you mean. I sometimes think that the game has moved on from what it was like when I was first attracted to it and I don't really like what it has become or where it is likely to head.
  • seadragonseadragon Member Posts: 75
    TOOTRUE said:

    I know what you mean. I sometimes think that the game has moved on from what it was like when I was first attracted to it and I don't really like what it has become or where it is likely to head.

    I don’t agree. The theory is there and learned, not to play like it, but to understand how and why we exploit. Most people, even high level pros are not playing perfect GTO, some elite players are playing near it. 95% of the people you play, we all play against are playing nowhere near perfect GTO, they are deviating from it a lot. Your job is to understand how they are deviating and exploit it. The game we all play hasn’t changed, it just got more interesting and now has another dimension and learning tool which enhances it. :-)

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