Hand 1, as Mike said can make a case for reshove or fold. I think I lean towards a fold.
Hand 2, The call pre is ok as long as we are happy playing post flop but can also argue to fold. Post flop I would play in flow. Would sigh fold once shoved on.
With KQdd we are so far ahead of an 8bb shove range of an aggressive player. We have a BB already committed and another BB from the limper I am feeling pretty good about isolating all in. I think the only way we can consider fold is if we suspect the limper is trapping.
With 97o folding pre is certainly not a disaster. I would fold 86o and call T8o so 97o falls in the middle. These hands don't perform very well in multi-way pots, being easily dominated and unlikely to make the nuts so if your not as comfortable postflop folding is better. When we do hit boards with 97o it will often be in quite a marginal way. We have the widest range preflop in the BB, the other two have better defined ranges that are going to be stronger than ours. This is an especially favorable board for the button who's flat range preflop is going to be quite Tx heavy, as a lot of the hands that he thinks are good enough to play but not go all in with preflop will contain a ten. Checking to the preflop raiser also simplifies things, creating a somewhat balanced flop strategy based around having leads is very complicated and difficult.
Leading here has just increased the pot to a point where the button is just going to shove when he has top pair or a draw and we don't get to realise our equity. We have no choice but to fold now. I would check call the flop with this hand and consider bluffing on some runouts when given the opportunity.
I think you can make a case for reshove or fold in the first hand, if they’ve been aggro all game they’re unlikely to be trying to nurse a small stack and so you can dominate part of their range. You don’t have enough behind to call then fold, and being called by the big stack limper isn’t a disaster as it gives a chance at a side pot that would give most of your chips back or winning more. If the player shoving is loose I think reshove.
Hand 2 the over-call pre is close, it’s tough to get to showdown with 97o cheaply vs 2 players playing OOP, much prefer the call vs one player where there’s less in the pot (so cheaper to continue) and only one opponent to potentially bluff off the hand. Having flopped the open-ender I think I prefer a check to keep the pot small, if you’re block betting to see a turn card you could go smaller to around 1/3 pot, which you might also want to do with 2p and a set of 5s. You don’t want to get all your chips in here vs the bigger stack but might be willing to go with it vs the shorter stack for a bounty or put pressure on them - but you want to keep your fold equity, getting ripped on and having to consider calling off for half your stack is a bit of a disaster, ICM, ladders, size of bounties are important here.
Hand 1, as Mike said can make a case for reshove or fold. I think I lean towards a fold.
Hand 2, The call pre is ok as long as we are happy playing post flop but can also argue to fold. Post flop I would play in flow. Would sigh fold once shoved on.
With KQdd we are so far ahead of an 8bb shove range of an aggressive player. We have a BB already committed and another BB from the limper I am feeling pretty good about isolating all in. I think the only way we can consider fold is if we suspect the limper is trapping.
With 97o folding pre is certainly not a disaster. I would fold 86o and call T8o so 97o falls in the middle. These hands don't perform very well in multi-way pots, being easily dominated and unlikely to make the nuts so if your not as comfortable postflop folding is better. When we do hit boards with 97o it will often be in quite a marginal way. We have the widest range preflop in the BB, the other two have better defined ranges that are going to be stronger than ours. This is an especially favorable board for the button who's flat range preflop is going to be quite Tx heavy, as a lot of the hands that he thinks are good enough to play but not go all in with preflop will contain a ten. Checking to the preflop raiser also simplifies things, creating a somewhat balanced flop strategy based around having leads is very complicated and difficult.
Leading here has just increased the pot to a point where the button is just going to shove when he has top pair or a draw and we don't get to realise our equity. We have no choice but to fold now. I would check call the flop with this hand and consider bluffing on some runouts when given the opportunity.
Thanks ever so much for your help and analysis @MattBates, @FeelGroggy and @bbMike . Really kind of you to point out what we should be thinking/doing in these situations
....and thanks for getting the conversation going Mike, and moving it to be seen @Tikay10
Also, AJo must be pretty close to the bottom of the calling range here? ATs feels close? A9o fold? What pairs are we calling with here, TT+ or even wider?
Hi Ryan. In response to the above.
As you know, I have posted a couple of videos which show the SNAPSHOVE ranges, however on SKY, 20BB shoves are still quite rare, so calling ranges are completely opponent dependant and "what they think of you" dependant, I wouldn't go by the GTO ranges at all.
So without notes on the player we would have to look at the STANDARD 20BB, Small blind shove ranges of "SKY PLAYERS that do that type of thing"
Taking the "medium" 20 BB shove ranges of SKY PLAYERS from the small blind, my personal calling range would be as follows:
A9s+, ATo+, 77+, so similar to what you quote, with the exception of the pocket pairs.
If it was against a standard "high stakes" PARTY or STARS player, my personal range, in a vacuum, would be approx A5s+, A8+, KJs, KQ, 55+, so considerably wider.
However, if I felt that my opponents were better than me and/or that I didn’t have a “skill edge” then I would go slightly wider, maybe A4s+, A7o +, KTs+, KJ+, QJs, 44+ which is still not quite as wide as SNAPSHOVE suggests.
You can't beat having detailed notes about your opponent in these spots. It MASSIVELY helps the decision making process and can affect the calling ranges considerably.
This is just additional info to that in the videos (I have re-done the videos btw)
This kind of hand is why notes really help. Readless it is a call. Against some it may be a snap fold. With spots like this, we need to make a decision based on ranges, sometimes players can be at the top of their range and we lose though.
100% agree with @MattBates here, notes are key and with the small player pool on SKY we all should have notes about regs that assist greatly with these decisions, I'm still probably not folding too often though. Can't reiterate enough what Matt has said.
Thought il drop hand in not sky hand sry about that cant seem to find interesting one. Think this is complected hand with alot of options vs 2 players who had decent hud stats. http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/view.php/id/9800438
Be interested to hear all comments on hand 888 toughish comp. Cbet/no cbet. x raise flop/turn. How much show down do we think we have on river facing action. jam river. Ive spoke about this hand with a few people and alot have different ideas.
I would lead out on the flop here, and with the stacks, probably just called if re-raised on the flop, although also tempted to 4bet jam flop. How you played it was better though if you didn't feel there was any fold equity there.
Was it your intention to check/raise the flop originally until the BB check/raised himself?
I think you did well not to lose more than you did, recognising that you probably wouldn't have fold equity if you 4bet the flop. VWP
TBH, I thought it was MSS.Poker that would have had a set or made flush, so got that wrong.
It is possible that they may fold if you 4bet shoved the flop, but as it turned out the set of 7's probably wasn't going away.
What would you have done if Lik3az0mbie bet the river. I think as him, I value bet the river here unless I felt either you or mss.poker would check/raise a flush in this spot.
I think a lot of your range is going to be interested in playing flop as a check on a dynamic board OOP mega deep. Wouldn't surprise me if PIO advocated a range check. As played when it comes back to you I think fold is a legitimate option. Some hearts aren't clean as they give villain's straight flushes and it is likely that one of the two villains have hearts which reduces our outs. Our implied odds aren't great for when we do hit our flush. Also BB might favour Ah x hands as bluff raises on the flop, so we make it less likely he is bluffing when we do hold the Ah. Calling can never be that bad though, we have outs, go to the turn heads up a reasonable amount and have a hand that can bluff some runouts. I think I favour fold though and call AhJx. I would play my entire flop continue range as a call.
I feel like we have basically no showdown on river and I think this is our best possible bluff on the river. I think I.P always has us beat. Hands like KJo KQo one heart should not be in his range preflop vs your utg 3x. We unblock all 2pair, straights and sets that villain's have, which are hands that are always folding and our Ah is obviously a really relevant card. Think we gotta fire.
I am kind of surprised with what BB shows up with, In position plays his hand super standard. I think BB's flop raise becomes better the more often I.P blocks hands like Tx QJss KJss rather than checking them back. The turn block continue feels not so great.
Interesting hand for sure, would love to know PIO's verdict. A non GTO goofy tiny turn raise/ shove non board pair rivers could be effective. Think it will look super strong to unknown regs and you might get them to fold flushes.
Comments
Hand 2, The call pre is ok as long as we are happy playing post flop but can also argue to fold. Post flop I would play in flow. Would sigh fold once shoved on.
Been lurking just not had much time to post with work and moving house again. Will try and post a bit more and maybe dabble in some UKOPs
Hope you are both doing well on and off the felt!
PS - GO AWAY.
With 97o folding pre is certainly not a disaster. I would fold 86o and call T8o so 97o falls in the middle. These hands don't perform very well in multi-way pots, being easily dominated and unlikely to make the nuts so if your not as comfortable postflop folding is better. When we do hit boards with 97o it will often be in quite a marginal way. We have the widest range preflop in the BB, the other two have better defined ranges that are going to be stronger than ours. This is an especially favorable board for the button who's flat range preflop is going to be quite Tx heavy, as a lot of the hands that he thinks are good enough to play but not go all in with preflop will contain a ten. Checking to the preflop raiser also simplifies things, creating a somewhat balanced flop strategy based around having leads is very complicated and difficult.
Leading here has just increased the pot to a point where the button is just going to shove when he has top pair or a draw and we don't get to realise our equity. We have no choice but to fold now. I would check call the flop with this hand and consider bluffing on some runouts when given the opportunity.
Hand 2 the over-call pre is close, it’s tough to get to showdown with 97o cheaply vs 2 players playing OOP, much prefer the call vs one player where there’s less in the pot (so cheaper to continue) and only one opponent to potentially bluff off the hand. Having flopped the open-ender I think I prefer a check to keep the pot small, if you’re block betting to see a turn card you could go smaller to around 1/3 pot, which you might also want to do with 2p and a set of 5s. You don’t want to get all your chips in here vs the bigger stack but might be willing to go with it vs the shorter stack for a bounty or put pressure on them - but you want to keep your fold equity, getting ripped on and having to consider calling off for half your stack is a bit of a disaster, ICM, ladders, size of bounties are important here.
Happy to be wrong to get the conversation going!
Thanks ever so much for your help and analysis @MattBates, @FeelGroggy and @bbMike . Really kind of you to point out what we should be thinking/doing in these situations
....and thanks for getting the conversation going Mike, and moving it to be seen @Tikay10
Short couple of videos below regarding the AJ hand of Ryan's and the KQs, 97o hands of Jez's:
https://stayorgopoker.home.blog/2019/12/14/adhoc-hand-history-analysis-of-ryan-and-jezs-hands/
As you know, I have posted a couple of videos which show the SNAPSHOVE ranges, however on SKY, 20BB shoves are still quite rare, so calling ranges are completely opponent dependant and "what they think of you" dependant, I wouldn't go by the GTO ranges at all.
So without notes on the player we would have to look at the STANDARD 20BB, Small blind shove ranges of "SKY PLAYERS that do that type of thing"
Taking the "medium" 20 BB shove ranges of SKY PLAYERS from the small blind, my personal calling range would be as follows:
A9s+, ATo+, 77+, so similar to what you quote, with the exception of the pocket pairs.
If it was against a standard "high stakes" PARTY or STARS player, my personal range, in a vacuum, would be approx A5s+, A8+, KJs, KQ, 55+, so considerably wider.
However, if I felt that my opponents were better than me and/or that I didn’t have a “skill edge” then I would go slightly wider, maybe A4s+, A7o +, KTs+, KJ+, QJs, 44+ which is still not quite as wide as SNAPSHOVE suggests.
You can't beat having detailed notes about your opponent in these spots. It MASSIVELY helps the decision making process and can affect the calling ranges considerably.
This is just additional info to that in the videos (I have re-done the videos btw)
hand 1
AJ call
hand 2
kq call
hand 3
Dont donk x and see what happens.
Was gonna give more detailed analysis but grog/graham and rest did it before me.
I would lead out on the flop here, and with the stacks, probably just called if re-raised on the flop, although also tempted to 4bet jam flop. How you played it was better though if you didn't feel there was any fold equity there.
Was it your intention to check/raise the flop originally until the BB check/raised himself?
I think you did well not to lose more than you did, recognising that you probably wouldn't have fold equity if you 4bet the flop. VWP
TBH, I thought it was MSS.Poker that would have had a set or made flush, so got that wrong.
It is possible that they may fold if you 4bet shoved the flop, but as it turned out the set of 7's probably wasn't going away.
What would you have done if Lik3az0mbie bet the river. I think as him, I value bet the river here unless I felt either you or mss.poker would check/raise a flush in this spot.
Interesting one.
As played when it comes back to you I think fold is a legitimate option. Some hearts aren't clean as they give villain's straight flushes and it is likely that one of the two villains have hearts which reduces our outs. Our implied odds aren't great for when we do hit our flush. Also BB might favour Ah x hands as bluff raises on the flop, so we make it less likely he is bluffing when we do hold the Ah. Calling can never be that bad though, we have outs, go to the turn heads up a reasonable amount and have a hand that can bluff some runouts. I think I favour fold though and call AhJx. I would play my entire flop continue range as a call.
I feel like we have basically no showdown on river and I think this is our best possible bluff on the river. I think I.P always has us beat. Hands like KJo KQo one heart should not be in his range preflop vs your utg 3x. We unblock all 2pair, straights and sets that villain's have, which are hands that are always folding and our Ah is obviously a really relevant card. Think we gotta fire.
I am kind of surprised with what BB shows up with, In position plays his hand super standard. I think BB's flop raise becomes better the more often I.P blocks hands like Tx QJss KJss rather than checking them back. The turn block continue feels not so great.
Interesting hand for sure, would love to know PIO's verdict. A non GTO goofy tiny turn raise/ shove non board pair rivers could be effective. Think it will look super strong to unknown regs and you might get them to fold flushes.