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Holiday ‘Pay’
Good Morning
Has anyone got knowledge of law on holiday pay?
I work 42.5 hours pr week
My holiday ‘entitlement ‘ is 20 days plus 8 bank holidays.
Every time Xmas comes around ( which is the last week of the year for us) ie holidays are taken from Jan to Dec. I seem to have a problem regarding entitlement.
The company accountant works our holiday based on 12.07% of HOURS WORKED.
As I take the odd half day here and there to deal with family stuff, apparently I haven’t accrued enough holiday to take the 20 days, so my pay at Xmas reflects this.
I have searched online and get different answers, one says that the 12.07% only applies when a worker who is on flexible hours.
Although I haven’t got a contract, I understand one is implied after a certain period, when I applied for the job I was informed of the weekly hours of 42.5.
It’s a small business and I don’t want to go into work ‘all guns blazing’ on this issue.
We are lucky enough to be able to take the hit at present, but if this had happened when we had small children, it would mean the difference in paying the mortgage or not.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Tom.
Has anyone got knowledge of law on holiday pay?
I work 42.5 hours pr week
My holiday ‘entitlement ‘ is 20 days plus 8 bank holidays.
Every time Xmas comes around ( which is the last week of the year for us) ie holidays are taken from Jan to Dec. I seem to have a problem regarding entitlement.
The company accountant works our holiday based on 12.07% of HOURS WORKED.
As I take the odd half day here and there to deal with family stuff, apparently I haven’t accrued enough holiday to take the 20 days, so my pay at Xmas reflects this.
I have searched online and get different answers, one says that the 12.07% only applies when a worker who is on flexible hours.
Although I haven’t got a contract, I understand one is implied after a certain period, when I applied for the job I was informed of the weekly hours of 42.5.
It’s a small business and I don’t want to go into work ‘all guns blazing’ on this issue.
We are lucky enough to be able to take the hit at present, but if this had happened when we had small children, it would mean the difference in paying the mortgage or not.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Tom.
Comments
Will this help your case?
https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-holiday-entitlement
I looked through that site, there seems to be a grey area around ‘ dependents’.
Last year I mentioned the unpaid leave I had taken was due to my daughters ongoing health problems, and apparently as she is over the age of 18 it doesn’t count? Or something like I haven’t got carers allowance...
I don’t want anything I’m not entitled to, and as the boss is very good at me taking unpaid leave at short notice I wouldn’t want to cause upset, but it is a bit of a bumm er at this time of year to look at pay packet and have zero hol pay.
I can only suggest Citizens Advice. They have helped me out in the past.
It all depends on the contract of employment and company rules you should have signed up to when joining.
I had a company handbook and it listed most things in there, but it may be different for a small business. Hope you can sort it all out.
Nick
Just had a thought, might be an idea to PM @Essexphil , he may be able to help or point you in the right direction.
It is NOT as simple as relating to hours actually worked. to give simple examples, someone who spends 11 months on Maternity Leave still has 5.6 weeks holiday to come. Similarly, someone can be off sick for years, and still accrue holiday pay as well.
The keys to this should be contained in your Staff Handbook/Contract of Employment.
As a guide:-
1. What happens when you request emergency time off? Is it counted as part of your holiday? Are you paid at normal rate for this time?
2. What do you have in writing about this? This is all about your contract with your employer, not how the Accountant does his sums.
You don't want to go in all guns blazing. However, you should be checking your documentation. In addition, it is worth pointing out to your employer that holiday pay would not be affected by you calling in sick (although pay might be, depending on your contract).
IF this sort of holiday is paid better than sick pay, I can understand your employer's position. If not, I suggest that this needs looking at closer.
Hope that helps
Because of this our staff could take a few days as paid leave without really affecting their holiday entitlement.
You may be better taking the odd days as paid holidays, depending on how many weeks you usually holiday for, and how many odd days you take.
I assume you don't work any overtime, paid or otherwise.
Although the accountant is unlikely to be aware of any unpaid overtime.
I am also assuming that you are credited with time spent on holidays, Bank Holidays, and the time you intended to spend at work in December, when the 12.07% calculation is made in respect of your December wages.
If this is not the case then your entitlement late in the year would be adversely affected.
Do you have records of the hours you have worked?
The calculation they are using doesn't necessarily work.
If you worked 5 days per week for 52 weeks.
That would be 260 days, (including credits for holidays taken and Bank Holidays)
12.07% of 260 days would mean more than a 31 day entitlement.
One other thing to consider is that if the company closes for a specific period over Christmas, then you haven't really got a 20 day entitlement.
You have 20 days less the shutdown.
If you had used all the 20 days prior to closing for Christmas, then the holiday period would presumably be unpaid, except for the Bank Holiday days.
You don't need to go in all guns blazing.
You just need to fully understand what is happening, keep records, and find a compromise.
Few things to highlight, my employer is ‘ old school’
No one at our place has a contract of employment, hence I have no paperwork on holiday “rules” to refer to.
I do have a time sheet I fill in weekly.
8.5 hrs day , 42.5 hrs week.
The critical point I’m trying to get an answer is -
Is there a law that employers have to adhere to when working out full time staff holiday entitlement?
I have googled
I have looked on gov websites.
It seems to me that it’s a grey area, and each employer can choose how they work out entitlements.
I did see ( somewhere ) a “ rule” about 20 days plus 8 bank holidays being minimum for full time staff, it may be European law that we as a Country decided ( or were made to) follow.
I am aware of certain things Phil pointed out, re maintaining accruing holiday when off sick, maternity, etc, however “ Time off unpaid” I cannot find anywhere.
I know I should keep tabs on my days off, In my defence it isn’t the first thing on my mind when certain things happen, and I ( stupidly, it seems) trust those that are paid to do this for a living, to get it right.
I think Tony has got his sums wrong, you don’t multiply the 52x5
You take off 28 from 260 = 232
Then it’s a 12.07% of 232, to get to 28.
However, that is how part time, and zero hours employees holiday entitlement is worked out.
21st century 🤯
If you’re entitled to annual leave, then bank holidays will either be:
deducted from your annual leave allowance (so you’ll have to take all bank holidays as paid holiday)
counted as additional holiday days - you may or may not be paid for them
Your contract should say which situation applies to you. If it doesn’t, bank holidays will automatically be deducted from your annual leave entitlement.
Example
You work full-time and you're entitled to 28 days of statutory paid holiday a year. You don’t have a written contract of employment. You’ll have to take the 8 bank holidays out of your paid holiday entitlement. This means you’ll have 20 days left to take when you choose.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/holidays-and-holiday-pay1/working-on-bank-holidays/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/holidays-and-holiday-pay1/check-if-youre-entitled-to-paid-holidays/
My Holiday entitlements are 20 days plus 8 bank holidays
We are closed on Bank Holidays
We close over Xmas
Depends what day Xmas falls on , we have to save “ some “ for Xmas shut down
I’m not aware until Xmas week when he wants to close.
I haven’t got a contract.
Everything is word of mouth and trust.
Last year the same happened, I asked in November if I’ve enough holiday left for Xmas , I didn’t get an answer as it’s hard to work out until the last day.
Taking 5 hours off to accompany wife to hospital for Lumbar puncture ( Should this be classed in the dependent category)
Taking unspecified days to look after grandson ( dependents?)
Taking half day to go to follow up oncology appointments twice a year
I don’t think any of these fall into the “ Taking the pi55” category
Based on the formula, as Xmas Day, and Boxing day are Bank Holidays, if you shut for say 7 working days at Xmas, to lose a weeks pay would have meant taking off an extra 40 days.
Most people would expect to be fired for that.
They told me to look at the result of the case below and talk to my employer.
Harpur Trust v Brazel & UNISON clarifies the legal position ensuring all workers are entitled to a minimum of 28 days paid annual leave, even if they do not get given work or paid for parts of the year. ... The trust claimed she was entitled to leave and pay below the statutory minimum.
You have got 5.6 weeks holiday-the key to this is whether, and what, deductions they can make for any additional holiday, ie whether they can (1) not pay you; and (2) reduce your holiday pay if these days are to be regarded as "additional" days for holiday pay calculation.
To add to the fun, you have 3 different sorts of additional holiday
1. Your grandson is "time off for dependants/emergencies;
2. Your wife's lumbar puncture is not, as that was a pre-planed appointment;
3. Your oncology appointments may relate to health/sickness, and might be in relation to a disability if you still have cancer
All employees have a contract of employment, whether or ot your employer can be ar5ed to put it in writing. You should have, by law, received a written statement from your employer in relation to major terms, including holiday pay and sick pay. The fact that you have not means that either your employer likes being sued in Employment Tribunals, or needs a new Accountant. Written terms are there to provide legal certainty.
Harpur Trust probably helps. But (IMO) the fact that your employer has not given you written terms makes it very difficult for him to reduce your holiday pay in relation to your unpaid time off. And, frankly, makes him sound like someone that Ebeneezer Scrooge would think of as a bit mean.
The problem is always the risk of wining the battle and losing the war-many employers tend to bear grudges...
I think “ Winning the battle but losing the war” is key in this.
As Del said
Next year I’m Definitely keeping track of time off and holidays taken.
Thanks all.