You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.

You might need to refresh your page afterwards.

Spot deep in Big Weekend BH

loosecamelloosecamel Member Posts: 152

Hi everyone

Reposted this hand with hopefully a working HH (thanks madprof).

We're about 9/10 in this situation IIRC. Table dynamics were myself and player in question have been preeetty tight and the table knows it (think by this point I've mentioned I sattied in) with both our blinds being persistently abused. Have been push/folding for the last hour so I've got a fairly tight image (unusually, for those who know me..).
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
mrwozzaSmall blind1500.001500.00116042.00
railtard11Big blind3000.004500.0054241.88
Your hole cards
  • A
  • J
mrrungoodFold
loosecamelRaise6666.0011166.0048770.00
matisbackCall6666.0017832.0047563.00
mrwozzaFold
railtard11Call3666.0021498.0050575.88
Flop
  • 6
  • 7
  • K
railtard11Check
loosecamelBet9268.0030766.0039502.00
matisbackCall9268.0040034.0038295.00
railtard11Fold
Turn
  • 4
loosecamelCheck
matisbackBet20017.0060051.0018278.00
loosecamelFold
matisbackShow
  • Q
  • K
matisbackWin40034.0058312.00
matisbackReturn20017.000.0078329.00
Flop:
This board hits my range harder than both villains I feel, so a mandatory c-bet. In hindsight 1-2k less may have equally done the trick, although this sizing shapes the pot up for a perfect turn jam. When called by BTN on the flop, I figure his range is gonna be 66-1010 (given dynamics I'm genuinely unsure whether these would have been shoved pre), KQs/KJs(?), occasional flatted AK and occasional AQ float. But all around I think his range is pretty narrow by this point. And my range I think is far wider, given I'd c-bet this with most Axs, 88-1010, KQs, AKo/s and AA (think I check JJ/QQ/KK here).

Turn:
Nice turn for me I think at first, now have some equity with a flush draw, no draws get there, as pointed out above, I don't think villain has a drawing hand in his range here, 89s doesn't call pre given stacks. With a pot-sized bet behind it's a question of shove or check/fold. Every bone in my body was leaning to a shove, even if I'm called with 66-77 or Kx I'd still have roughly 20% equity (and a sizeable bounty) and I think I get folds from 88-1010, rightly or wrongly. After limited thought with the sky timebank, I elected to check and give up if contested. I have enough KQ/AKs that check/call this turn so not worried about protecting my range at all so this would have to be a check/fold.

The reason this hand is troubling me now is because if we were to assume the range I've assigned for villain is correct, we have 6 combinations each of 88-1010 that will fold, 18 combos, and 3 combos each of 66-77 and KQs. If we assume villain folds all 88-1010 when shoved to, then it's a slam dunk shove as villain has 18 folding combos and 9 calling combos (i've eliminated speculative floats and a flatted AK in the range here as I think it's far less likely to be the case). At the time I just felt he was super weighted towards a K which would not fold to a shove. But that does raise a secondary question, given my percieved tightness, do we ever get folds from KJ/KQ here if shoved? I don't think so, but I may be wrong. The only other question is whether I can open jam this hand pre, given my image, I don't think I'd get looked up that light so it'd likely get through and would probably be a +EV play, but I think just raising is fine here and a much lower risk.

As played, I checked, villain bet with my insta-fold button clicked and player was nice to enough to show KQs.
Thanks for anyone's input, it would be appreciated.

Cheers

Loose

Comments

  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited May 2020
    You would expect a jam pre from villain with 88+ but you obviously can't discount those. He shouldn't have AK. I think his hand his heavily weighted to exactly what it is, a Kx.

    Given that the turn brings in the flush draw and the fact that an Ace should be good a high proportion of the time, I just jam the turn. I can't see many Kx folding, but there is still the chance of folding out passively played underpairs and weak Ax.

    That's just my opinion though. Somebody far more competent, both at playing and analysing will give a better view.
  • Allan23Allan23 Member Posts: 876
    I'm uncertain if this spot is a mandatory C-bet on flop? It definitely isn't in the always check category but don't think its in the always bet category either
  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    Allan23 said:

    I'm uncertain if this spot is a mandatory C-bet on flop? It definitely isn't in the always check category but don't think its in the always bet category either

    I think I'm c-betting, the King is good for our range and we have backdoor f/d. You could argue for going slightly smaller? But if you're setting up a psb to jam all club turns then that doesnt seem too bad a line to me? I'm often way off with my thinking though!
  • Allan23Allan23 Member Posts: 876
    Yeah but also think K67 isn't bad for anyone's range here -

    BB can have k7, k6, any suited king and offsuit KQ, KJ, K10, K9, 67, (66 and 77 maybe but they rejam sometimes).

    Button can have KQ, KJ, K10, maybe 66 and 77, of course not Ak and probs not KK unless its an attempted trap.

    Not saying betting flop is bad, but when we do and we get the club turn we've sized up flop perfectly for a turn shove so I would be following through on turn

  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    edited May 2020
    Allan23 said:

    Yeah but also think K67 isn't bad for anyone's range here -

    BB can have k7, k6, any suited king and offsuit KQ, KJ, K10, K9, 67, (66 and 77 maybe but they rejam sometimes).

    Button can have KQ, KJ, K10, maybe 66 and 77, of course not Ak and probs not KK unless its an attempted trap.

    Not saying betting flop is bad, but when we do and we get the club turn we've sized up flop perfectly for a turn shove so I would be following through on turn

    I missed the fact that bb had come along and it was 3 way to the flop.
  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    Interesting spot and thanks for posting camel. I think there is a strong argument for shoving pre. Hand does flop well so opening is fine too.

    An issue with c betting 3 way is how often we get folds and how often we can fire a second time (what cards do we want on the turn) when we get called on the flop and how often we get folds when we fire a second time.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 169,599

    @loosecamel

    Well done on 4th in that Mini UKOPS thing last night.

    Surprised you have not had more replies to this, & though you have posted it in the correct thread, I'm gonna move it across to Poker Chat so it gets more eyeballs.
  • waller02waller02 Member Posts: 9,072
    MattBates said:

    Interesting spot and thanks for posting camel. I think there is a strong argument for shoving pre. Hand does flop well so opening is fine too.

    An issue with c betting 3 way is how often we get folds and how often we can fire a second time (what cards do we want on the turn) when we get called on the flop and how often we get folds when we fire a second time.

    What are your thoughts on b/f flop to set up a jam on club turns? Is that bad? Bit too much of a punt?
  • Sunday8pmSunday8pm Member Posts: 58
    MattBates said:

    Interesting spot and thanks for posting camel. I think there is a strong argument for shoving pre. Hand does flop well so opening is fine too.

    An issue with c betting 3 way is how often we get folds and how often we can fire a second time (what cards do we want on the turn) when we get called on the flop and how often we get folds when we fire a second time.

    Agree with this, I'm shoving AJ pre here with 16 bigs.

    Was your plan to raise/call pre out of interest?

    As played i'm shoving turn with confidence 99 times out of 100.
  • loosecamelloosecamel Member Posts: 152
    Tikay10 said:


    @loosecamel

    Well done on 4th in that Mini UKOPS thing last night.

    Surprised you have not had more replies to this, & though you have posted it in the correct thread, I'm gonna move it across to Poker Chat so it gets more eyeballs.

    Cheers and cheers Tikay, appreciate that.

    Interesting to hear some leaning towards checking this flop, do we only ever bet KQ/AK/AA here then? This hand alongside hands like A5cc seem like good candidates to balance our value range? As played it seems everyone is in agreement with shipping it in, I did think as much, shame I didn't have the melons to do so.

    In regards to GII pre, is 16bb in a 12min blind tourny with no antes a bit wide to do as standard? Maybe I'm just a knit but it seems there are better spots to find. I'd rejam this over a raise with 16bb but think it may be marginal open jamming idk.
    Sunday8pm said:



    Agree with this, I'm shoving AJ pre here with 16 bigs.

    Was your plan to raise/call pre out of interest?

    As played i'm shoving turn with confidence 99 times out of 100.

    Player dependent tbh, more than likely folding to a jam pre though. Haven't really checked a spot like that in a calc before, but I imagine its marginal with 16bb eff.

    Thanks for the responses guys, this was an interesting spot so it's nice to get some ideas off others.
  • jordz16jordz16 Member Posts: 2,253
    whether you open or shove pre depends on whether you even have a 16bb shoving range or not, if you would be opening/folding all hands at 16bbs then opening is fine, but if you do have a shoving range then this hand should be in it IMO

    as you mentioned id agree with a smaller c bet, i think 1/3 of pot is fine, id then be giving up on all non A or club turns, once you hit your club i think you have to maximise your equity by shoving, its a line that make sense too as you'd play ak, aa, kk maybe kq, the exact same way, opponents ranges will include plenty of kq/kj hands which will likely call as well as plenty of other drawing hands which will fold, even k10/kj could fold sometimes given there would be so few hands it beats that would take your line
  • Sunday8pmSunday8pm Member Posts: 58
    Sunday8pm said:



    Agree with this, I'm shoving AJ pre here with 16 bigs.

    Was your plan to raise/call pre out of interest?

    As played i'm shoving turn with confidence 99 times out of 100.

    Player dependent tbh, more than likely folding to a jam pre though. Haven't really checked a spot like that in a calc before, but I imagine its marginal with 16bb eff.

    Thanks for the responses guys, this was an interesting spot so it's nice to get some ideas off others.


    Of course every time you have 16 bigs and AJs doesn't necessarily mean an auto shove, its the type of hand that can defo be raise called/raise folded dependant on opponent/bounty/tournament position etc. Hard to get an exact feel for it by seeing a hand history as dynamic can also be important.

    As played flop is borderline cbet/give up, I'm prob leaning toward cbet but defo mega small, to try and give enough room for a second barrel on some turns. Turn is slam dunk shove from the info given.

    Nice result in the UKOPS, vwp!

  • mushroom1mushroom1 Member Posts: 645
    MattBates said:

    Interesting spot and thanks for posting camel. I think there is a strong argument for shoving pre. Hand does flop well so opening is fine too.

    An issue with c betting 3 way is how often we get folds and how often we can fire a second time (what cards do we want on the turn) when we get called on the flop and how often we get folds when we fire a second time.

    Agree. Generally, I am shoving here, especially if I you have info that player(s) behind are likely to have a larger than usual calling range to a 2-3x raise.

    The second point in an interesting topic and one I've been thinking a lot of since playing regularly again.

    Matt, do you (or anyone else) think that second barrels are more successful now than they were 10+ years ago? I realise it may be too general a question. It may also be tricky to answer for those who have been playing steadily over the past decade, as opposed to someone who has dipped in and out and, therefore, noticing subtle changes.

    It appears, to me, that second barreling a brick-turn gets through more than it might've in a different era. If so, I'm guessing it's due to current-day players, generally, believing c-bets less, and calling to float or with 2nd/3rd pair?

    This may all be nonsense due to selective memory and/or small sample sizes.

    Would love to hear thoughts from you all, on this matter.
Sign In or Register to comment.