Two river spots

tonyp142

Hey - hoping someone can help me with these two hands. What would be your reasons for calling/folding river in either of these big blind spots? Thanks for help...

(They've kind of merged together below. 1st hand ends after loolollollo's river bet)



Hand 1

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
tonyp142	Big blind		80.00	80.00	2552.50
	Your hole cards	7 7
lyonsbob06	Fold
SenorBegs	Fold
grinddd	Fold
loololollo	Raise		160.00	240.00	9890.00
tonyp142	Call		80.00	320.00	2472.50
Flop
		6 4 6
tonyp142	Check
loololollo	Check
Turn
		8
tonyp142	Check
loololollo	Bet		240.00	560.00	9650.00
tonyp142	Call		240.00	800.00	2232.50
River
		K
tonyp142	Check
loololollo	Bet		720.00	1520.00	8930.00
Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
tinman2	Small blind		125.00	125.00	2275.00
tonyp142	Big blind		250.00	375.00	7757.00
	Your hole cards	K J
SenorBegs	Fold
grinddd	Raise		500.00	875.00	16524.50
loololollo	Fold
tinman2	Fold
tonyp142	Call		250.00	1125.00	7507.00
Flop
		K 10 8
tonyp142	Check
grinddd	Check
Turn
		Q
tonyp142	Bet		500.00	1625.00	7007.00
grinddd	Call		500.00	2125.00	16024.50
River
		Q
tonyp142	Check
grinddd	Bet		1593.75	3718.75

LARSON7

I would fold hand one. There is just so much that beats 77s on the river. Lol will be one of the most aggressive players in the player pool on sky, and will most often be betting a flush draw on the flop, so reducing potential river bluffs. He can be value betting as thin as an 8 here. Also LOL checking back such a dry board, would suggest he has some show down value on the flop, including some Ace x, which have improved on later streets.

Hand 2: Seems pretty standard to the river. On the turn your bet sizing is fine, although you could have went a bit bigger. Betting or checking the river are reasonable, wouldn't mind a value bet to be fair. After checking and facing this bet it feels like he's betting for value, but i'm not sure of the player - reads would be pretty important. Against the sky pool i would say this is mostly for value AJ, 9J, Qx. A lot of the time the straights will be getting raised on the turn, but not always. Then there's a whole bunch of AQ,Q9,Q8, with some other Q's as well. Interesting one.

chappo100

Hand 1 is cool, I like 3bet/call pre but think its close to calling pre i'm not really sure what lololols range is pre here.
on the flop I think lololol bets pairs/6x/4x/worst hands like 98 T9 87 Q8 on flop as they have the worst showdown value and it gives us a range of sommit like Ax KQ KJ KT QJ type hands on flop. Given that range the only turn value bets are like A8 and semi bluffs to balance. In reality I think lololol is overbluffing with the majority of his check back range on turn? this being said you could c/r or bet turn as played and I wouldn't ever fold, or c/c but then issue is any AKQ river pretty much smacks his flop check back range.

also I would be suprised to see A high combos try and get anything better to fold on this river which leaves a lot of Kx broadways that you are always keener to bet turn with, as you can get A highs to fold so river with a k hitting is kinda bleurghhghg

@loololollo did I just massacre assignment of your ranges?

hand 2 I think is good as played and just a call on river.

tonyp142

Thanks guys. Think I’m clearer that hand 2 should maybe be a fold. Can have AQ Q8 and some QT. Also AJ just to name some value hands. In game I think I thought that most queens bet flop but I don’t think that’s true at all.

What does he check back flop, call turn and then bluff river with? I’m thinking not much. Be interested if anyone understands what he should turn into bluffs on this river?

Need to think more about hand 1...

tonyp142

@chappo100 I know you are leaning towards call. What do you think we beat?

chappo100

I get to the river and bet with like A8 A5 A7 (maybe some A2 A3) KQ KJ KT K9 QJ QT TJ and some nut flushes (pretty much same sizing). but it could be way different depending on the worst hand that is checked back.
I feel like some people are betting turn with 100% of their flop check back range when checked to again on turn some check back turn with almost all again. (makes this a nightmare to narrow down accurately)
I probs just get taken to value town in real time, although I feel like I played a hand real similar and he had QJ after i was like i'm getting owned... *calls anyway*

loosecamel

Just to throw my two cents in;

H1: I think we should be leading turn? As chappo mentioned I think all trash hands bet this flop so we can go for value vs A highs and As/Ks type hands on turn. Some higher pp and some flush draws could be checked on the flop that we are behind, but I feel checking turn again gives away too much equity. Would be c/f spade rivers and K/A rivers after leading turn, and c/c non spade 9/10, and b/f low rivers (b/c if we boat up). As played I think it's a pretty tough spot, K river seems like a pretty good barrelling card for lool. I'd be indifferent either way, but leaning towards folding. If we were to assume there are some % checked pp and flush draws on flop, these will make a river betting range more weighted towards value imo.

H2: I'm having trouble with H2, unsure what IP checking range looks like here on flop. Think betting turn is probably fine, leaving 10J and QJ as our J's that check but betting our top pair + draw seems good getting value from AQ, JJ and some flush draws. River I think is super tough. V could be trapping with KK/QQ/1010 but think it's unlikely. Personally don't see many Qx out there other than AQ (KQ/QJ/Q10s/Q9s all bet flop I think). But I also don't see many lower pp that call turn that will turn into a bluff, nor do I believe many Axh wouldn't bet flop and we hold the Jh reducing a fair amount of their natural bluffs. I think I would sigh call and expect to see AQ/AJ a fair bunch, but i guess it should be a fold. Would love to hear others thoughts on H2 also.

For H2, how would you be playing a boat (88, Q10, KQ) in this spot? If it were a c/shove river then this hands seems a pretty good candidate to bluff x/shove river That may be the inherent spew in me talking though. Stack sizes look pretty nice for it and can't see AQ being particularly happy with calling it off.

tonyp142

Thanks a lot for comments. Won’t reveal hands yet except that I’m a massive calling station so I called both so I can post the results.

Agree that hand 2 my size should be bigger as I will bluff quite a lot after his check back on the flop

Hand one vs lool. I think he bets close to all flush draws on flop (Probably apart from Ace high and king high) and all over pairs.

@loosecamel I like turn lead as very unlikely 8 improves him and he should have few flushes with his line. I kind of think this folds out all of his high card non spade combos which may check back the turn. So that is a big win for us.

As played feels like I lose to AK, KQ, KJ etc And but some slow played nut flushes but beat AQ, AJ QJ. QT.

He bets 1/2 pot so we have to call and win 25%. Feels like we have that...