PLO8 hands for review.

coo1-um

This hand is from last nights £5.50 PLO8 game, 11 left, 9 paid i'm in about 6th /7th against the chip leader.
Im sure i played i ok(ish)

1. Is the call correct, i know im out of position after the flop against the original caller but surely this is a call getting 5/1 right?
2. The small blind and chip leader leads with a pot bet, after a flop where i hit 2 pair, 2nd nut low draw and 2nd nut flush draw what do i do here?
3. what are we putting the small blind on with 2 behind but a large chip advantage and being so close to the bubble?

Essexphil

1. As you rightly say, can never contemplate folding there. I would consider raising, but probably call
2. I think you have to pot there. Not ideal, but you have a decent current hand, and loads of draws
3. @TOONGAZZA is a very competent PLO8 player. He knows how to wield a big stack. He also knows that people put too much emphasis on min-cashing. What do I put him on there? Any 4 cards, or (at its highest) any made hand OR any draw

Get it in.

Tikay10

I'm potting that flop, we'd be unlucky to run into better at both ends. Think we are more likely to scoop than lose both ends. Great spot.

pompeynic

My original thought is to pot the min raise and call pre flop. Had the A been suited definitely, but still think I am happy to get it in if called pre, plus the chance I might get two folds .
If not pre then 100% on the flop.

safc71

Potting that flop for sure, that's a great flop if it goes wrong so be it but you have to go for it. Agree with Essexphil @TOONGAZZA is no fool and likes to apply pressure and could have anything but what about @ronny707 also no fool and the original player who raised.
If i was a betting man i would go for ronny707 to have A2 to claim the low and TOONGAZZA to get the high with a straight. But its a no fold for sure.

coo1-um

Despite the fact that we have 2 competent opponents who we put in having decent drawing hands as a minimum we should never fold.

Should we ever have a flat calling range here. Giving @ronny707 chance to improve a possible A2 whilst seeing if our own ace or 3 is counterfeited on the turn and leaving us with 10k chips or 12 bb and a chance of getting away from the hand. Knowing full well @TOONGAZZA is likely to bomb the turn anyway.

Essexphil

coo1-um said:

Despite the fact that we have 2 competent opponents who we put in having decent drawing hands as a minimum we should never fold.

Should we ever have a flat calling range here. Giving @ronny707 chance to improve a possible A2 whilst seeing if our own ace or 3 is counterfeited on the turn and leaving us with 10k chips or 12 bb and a chance of getting away from the hand. Knowing full well @TOONGAZZA is likely to bomb the turn anyway.

It is important to remember that you are ahead of a lot of drawing hands. As an example, a player with 8d9d is behind. You have 3 ways of winning at least part of the pot-via a house, a flush, or your A3.

It is also important to bear in mind that you have a reasonable chance of scooping-as Tikay says, that chance looks better than winning neither.

You may well go out, depending on the others' holdings and the runout. But the chips go in here, not on the turn-there is no card (other than a King) which will really help. The only hand you don't want to see at this stage is Ad2d-but on that betting pre I don't think it is likely

Tikay10

Great hand to discuss. More of these please.

safc71

Not keen on flat calling if your cards fall on the turn 2 K 6 or maybe a diamond you may miss out on some value. If any other card falls and GAZZA gets he's chips in are we folding? NO WAY

Tikay10

Think it's essential that we bet the flop & commit to the hand.

Enut

Top and bottom pair, 2nd nut flush draw, 2nd nut low draw and you have ronny covered so a bounty up for grabs. Yep I'm potting the flop all day long. Then you find yourself up against the nut flush draw and nut low draw which both come in and it's good night nurse. Oh the joy of PLO8.

coo1-um

@Essexphil @Tikay10 @safc71 @pompeynic @Enut
So given the fact we can assume @TOONGAZZA is potting any turn let’s look at @ronny707.
We can conceivably put them on A2 add to that a 3 or a king or a suited ace of diamonds and they are possibly coming along to.

Now what do we actually have other than a lot of draws to one end or both and probably not the nuts. Any diamond, king or 6 could give us the high, the ace of diamonds would lose us any chance of the low as would any 3.

Any none diamond ace, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 could lose us both high and low. Give one of them a king and you can add jacks and queens into this mix.

Are we really looking that good that it’s a ‘get them all in’ 100% of the time

coo1-um

I understand the comparisons between plo8 and hold em are limited but if you have a comparable starting hand what would we say have A9S+ maybe KJs perhaps. So presume we have suited hearts on a 2 heart flop and we pushing 18bb into the pot all of the time.

If only I had one of those number crunching machines thingies
I think scoop, 3 quarter, split, quartered, lose could all be fairly close here especially given to player behind still to act

Essexphil

If Ronny comes along-well if you don't raise, he definitely will.

I think you are underestimating the cumulative strength of your hand. 2 pair AND 2nd nut draw high AND low.

To use your NLH comparison, this hand is stronger than just a flush draw. A closer example would be you have QsJs on a Qh10s9s flop. Yes, someone could have a set or KJ. Yes, the other could have AsKs. But a shove is the only play there. If you wait a card, losers will fold and winners will call. Not good.

IF all 3 remain in on your hand above (which is of itself unlikely) the likeliest scenario by far is that you win either high or low. When you gain chips. Then lose, then scoop. It's plus EV to shove. More so if 1 (or of course both) fold.

Enut

coo1-um said:

I understand the comparisons between plo8 and hold em are limited but if you have a comparable starting hand what would we say have A9S+ maybe KJs perhaps. So presume we have suited hearts on a 2 heart flop and we pushing 18bb into the pot all of the time.

If only I had one of those number crunching machines thingies
I think scoop, 3 quarter, split, quartered, lose could all be fairly close here especially given to player behind still to act

I use the poker odds calculator on cardplayer.com (remember to select Omaha and tick the hi lo 8 or better box in the top right hand corner. If you know the other hands it's brilliant, if you don't then you can make them up. I juts got you less than 10% ev by giving the other two Ad2dKs7h (better two pair, better low draw, better flush draw) and 7789 (middle set and straight draw), I hope for your sake they didn't have those hands!

Enut

It's always nice to check your exit hand and find you got it in as a favourite, of course I never check the hands where I outdraw anyone because that doesn't reinforce my belief that I run badly! Although I think I run better in PLO8 than Holdem as I usually have to run badly for both the hi and lo to get scooped in PLO8.

Essexphil

Enut said:

coo1-um said:

I understand the comparisons between plo8 and hold em are limited but if you have a comparable starting hand what would we say have A9S+ maybe KJs perhaps. So presume we have suited hearts on a 2 heart flop and we pushing 18bb into the pot all of the time.

If only I had one of those number crunching machines thingies
I think scoop, 3 quarter, split, quartered, lose could all be fairly close here especially given to player behind still to act

I use the poker odds calculator on cardplayer.com (remember to select Omaha and tick the hi lo 8 or better box in the top right hand corner. If you know the other hands it's brilliant, if you don't then you can make them up. I juts got you less than 10% ev by giving the other two Ad2dKs7h (better two pair, better low draw, better flush draw) and 7789 (middle set and straight draw), I hope for your sake they didn't have those hands!

Poker odds calculators are not effective when hands are unknown in PLO8. Action pre makes Ad2d unlikely (not impossible, mind). Often either both hands will be concentrating at the same end (high or low) or at least 1 of the hands will have a weaker draw than you.

Seriously, it's a shove all day long. The only time it would not be would be in a qualifier.

Tikay10

Essexphil said:

If Ronny comes along-well if you don't raise, he definitely will.

I think you are underestimating the cumulative strength of your hand. 2 pair AND 2nd nut draw high AND low.

To use your NLH comparison, this hand is stronger than just a flush draw. A closer example would be you have QsJs on a Qh10s9s flop. Yes, someone could have a set or KJ. Yes, the other could have AsKs. But a shove is the only play there. If you wait a card, losers will fold and winners will call. Not good.

IF all 3 remain in on your hand above (which is of itself unlikely) the likeliest scenario by far is that you win either high or low. When you gain chips. Then lose, then scoop. It's plus EV to shove. More so if 1 (or of course both) fold.

Agree with this. If we slow play the flop & a blank rolls off on the turn we risk getting blasted off or losing our nerve & wasting all that flop equity. We have great equity here & we have to realise it by potting the flop imo.

For me, this is one of those spots I'm happy to risk my tournament, & if it goes wrong, so be it.

When I exit a MTT I spend a few minutes being super self-critical. Could I have played it differently? Here, if I mashed the pot button & went busto, I'd be saying well I made the correct play & that's all that matters. Then I'd sulk for about 30 seconds & go put my dinner on.

Enut

Tikay10 said:

Essexphil said:

If Ronny comes along-well if you don't raise, he definitely will.

I think you are underestimating the cumulative strength of your hand. 2 pair AND 2nd nut draw high AND low.

To use your NLH comparison, this hand is stronger than just a flush draw. A closer example would be you have QsJs on a Qh10s9s flop. Yes, someone could have a set or KJ. Yes, the other could have AsKs. But a shove is the only play there. If you wait a card, losers will fold and winners will call. Not good.

IF all 3 remain in on your hand above (which is of itself unlikely) the likeliest scenario by far is that you win either high or low. When you gain chips. Then lose, then scoop. It's plus EV to shove. More so if 1 (or of course both) fold.

Agree with this. If we slow play the flop & a blank rolls off on the turn we risk getting blasted off or losing our nerve & wasting all that flop equity. We have great equity here & we have to realise it by potting the flop imo.

For me, this is one of those spots I'm happy to risk my tournament, & if it goes wrong, so be it.

When I exit a MTT I spend a few minutes being super self-critical. Could I have played it differently? Here, if I mashed the pot button & went busto, I'd be saying well I made the correct play & that's all that matters. Then I'd sulk for about 30 seconds & go put my dinner on.

Isn't the calming effect of a Fray Bentos Steak and Kidney pie amazing!

pompeynic

Eleven left, you are on the short handed table, so blinds coming around quicker. If you are not going to war , either pre, or when presented with this flop, risks seeing your stack dwindled away. It is quite possible you will see more wonder hands like 279Q unsuited before you see anything remotely this good again. If you get beaten so be it, even if you wake up with AAK2 ds next hand there are no guarantees in 08, as we all know only too well.

coo1-um

so as played and the fact that i would not play to min cash in this spot.




so i did the right thing and got it in good, or did i?



had Ronny707 come along with a rag A 2 hand.