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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Donaldson says he will not leave Commons until NI Protocol issues are resolved


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/donaldson-says-he-will-not-leave-commons-until-ni-protocol-issues-are-resolved/ar-AAX7t1V?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4e9488bc4b6844f1b0a0b8684f33537e


    UUP will enter Executive under Sinn Fein First Minister – Northern Ireland must have a say on protocol, says Beattie



    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/uup-will-enter-executive-under-sinn-fein-first-minister-northern-ireland-must-have-a-say-on-protocol-says-beattie-41630108.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    The fact that a growing number of the younger generation seem to be ignoring the divides of the past should provide great hope for the future.
    I think that the DUP may further weaken their position by their current actions.
    They are dead against the border full stop.
    Whatever happens to the protocol, it doesnt seem possible to completely remove the border.
    So it doesnt seem like they will be happy anytime soon.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    edited May 2022
    .
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    How do they fill Jeffrey Donaldsons Stormont seat, if he decides to stay in Westminster?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    Donaldson says he will not leave Commons until NI Protocol issues are resolved


    https://uk.style.yahoo.com/donaldson-says-not-leave-commons-174624678.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    HAYSIE said:

    .

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    How do they fill Jeffrey Donaldsons Stormont seat, if he decides to stay in Westminster?
    Sir Jeffrey said he would not return to Stormont until he could be sure "the political institutions in Northern Ireland have a stable foundation".

    He could instead co-opt another DUP member to fill the Lagan Valley Stormont seat in the interim.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61390917
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    edited May 2022
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    edited May 2022
    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
    Let's take Strangford, as an example. Although the same would likely apply in a Nationalist area.

    The 5 Candidates who received the most votes? In order, they are:-

    1. Alliance 1
    2. DUP 1
    3. TUV
    4. DUP 2
    5. UUP 1

    Who got elected? (In order for ones who met the threshold)

    1. DUP 1
    2. Alliance 1
    3. DUP 2
    4. UUP 1
    5. Alliance 2

    Despite the fact that Alliance 2 received 7th most 1st-preference votes. And was outside the top 5 until the last person to be ruled out prior to the final vote-the SDLP, who had risen from 9th to 7th. Those transfers turned a 2,000 loss into a 200 vote win.

    The 6th place person's votes are the only votes that never count.

    In this area, votes for Unionists-26,000
    Non-aligned-10,000
    Nationalists-4,000

    26,000 gets 3 seats. 10,000 gets 2. The 5k-plus votes for the TUV never counted.

    The system is just plain wrong.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
    Let's take Strangford, as an example. Although the same would likely apply in a Nationalist area.

    The 5 Candidates who received the most votes? In order, they are:-

    1. Alliance 1
    2. DUP 1
    3. TUV
    4. DUP 2
    5. UUP 1

    Who got elected? (In order for ones who met the threshold)

    1. DUP 1
    2. Alliance 1
    3. DUP 2
    4. UUP 1
    5. Alliance 2

    Despite the fact that Alliance 2 received 7th most 1st-preference votes. And was outside the top 5 until the last person to be ruled out prior to the final vote-the SDLP, who had risen from 9th to 7th. Those transfers turned a 2,000 loss into a 200 vote win.

    The 6th place person's votes are the only votes that never count.

    In this area, votes for Unionists-26,000
    Non-aligned-10,000
    Nationalists-4,000

    26,000 gets 3 seats. 10,000 gets 2. The 5k-plus votes for the TUV never counted.

    The system is just plain wrong.
    Why dont they just elect the 5 with the most votes then?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    edited May 2022
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
    Let's take Strangford, as an example. Although the same would likely apply in a Nationalist area.

    The 5 Candidates who received the most votes? In order, they are:-

    1. Alliance 1
    2. DUP 1
    3. TUV
    4. DUP 2
    5. UUP 1

    Who got elected? (In order for ones who met the threshold)

    1. DUP 1
    2. Alliance 1
    3. DUP 2
    4. UUP 1
    5. Alliance 2

    Despite the fact that Alliance 2 received 7th most 1st-preference votes. And was outside the top 5 until the last person to be ruled out prior to the final vote-the SDLP, who had risen from 9th to 7th. Those transfers turned a 2,000 loss into a 200 vote win.

    The 6th place person's votes are the only votes that never count.

    In this area, votes for Unionists-26,000
    Non-aligned-10,000
    Nationalists-4,000

    26,000 gets 3 seats. 10,000 gets 2. The 5k-plus votes for the TUV never counted.

    The system is just plain wrong.
    Why dont they just elect the 5 with the most votes then?
    That would have it's own problems. Tactical voting, fielding 1 or 2 candidates according to predicted share, in some areas alienating the minority voters...

    There is no easy answer. But there must be something less poor than the current system...
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
    Let's take Strangford, as an example. Although the same would likely apply in a Nationalist area.

    The 5 Candidates who received the most votes? In order, they are:-

    1. Alliance 1
    2. DUP 1
    3. TUV
    4. DUP 2
    5. UUP 1

    Who got elected? (In order for ones who met the threshold)

    1. DUP 1
    2. Alliance 1
    3. DUP 2
    4. UUP 1
    5. Alliance 2

    Despite the fact that Alliance 2 received 7th most 1st-preference votes. And was outside the top 5 until the last person to be ruled out prior to the final vote-the SDLP, who had risen from 9th to 7th. Those transfers turned a 2,000 loss into a 200 vote win.

    The 6th place person's votes are the only votes that never count.

    In this area, votes for Unionists-26,000
    Non-aligned-10,000
    Nationalists-4,000

    26,000 gets 3 seats. 10,000 gets 2. The 5k-plus votes for the TUV never counted.

    The system is just plain wrong.
    Why dont they just elect the 5 with the most votes then?
    That would have it's own problems. Tactical voting, fielding 1 or 2 candidates according to predicted share, in some areas alienating the minority voters...

    There is no easy answer. But there must be something less poor than the current system...
    Surely the current system is prone to tactical voting.
    You could have a Farage type leader of a sh1t non aligned party picking up loads of votes particularly in Nationalist areas and purely because they werent Unionist.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    We unionists who foresaw that Brexit would cause problems at the Northern Ireland border were ignored


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/we-unionists-who-foresaw-that-brexit-would-cause-problems-at-the-northern-ireland-border-were-ignored/ar-AAXfnya?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=44a9a24b0a74441e87ea0a347b007663
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    I have to admit that I dont understand how the voting works.
    So I will take your word for it.
    I might read up on it at some point.

    The DUP are sticking to their guns then.
    I have now read up on it, and think it is weird.
    What is the advantage over giving everyone one vote, and electing the five candidates with the most votes in each constituency?
    Let's take Strangford, as an example. Although the same would likely apply in a Nationalist area.

    The 5 Candidates who received the most votes? In order, they are:-

    1. Alliance 1
    2. DUP 1
    3. TUV
    4. DUP 2
    5. UUP 1

    Who got elected? (In order for ones who met the threshold)

    1. DUP 1
    2. Alliance 1
    3. DUP 2
    4. UUP 1
    5. Alliance 2

    Despite the fact that Alliance 2 received 7th most 1st-preference votes. And was outside the top 5 until the last person to be ruled out prior to the final vote-the SDLP, who had risen from 9th to 7th. Those transfers turned a 2,000 loss into a 200 vote win.

    The 6th place person's votes are the only votes that never count.

    In this area, votes for Unionists-26,000
    Non-aligned-10,000
    Nationalists-4,000

    26,000 gets 3 seats. 10,000 gets 2. The 5k-plus votes for the TUV never counted.

    The system is just plain wrong.
    Why dont they just elect the 5 with the most votes then?
    That would have it's own problems. Tactical voting, fielding 1 or 2 candidates according to predicted share, in some areas alienating the minority voters...

    There is no easy answer. But there must be something less poor than the current system...
    DUP expects new UK law on post-Brexit N. Ireland trade in early June


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/dup-expects-new-uk-law-on-post-brexit-n-ireland-trade-in-early-june/ar-AAXw1Ow?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=97589e216b8f4a74b194d610391184ec


    DUP not interested in ‘sticking plaster’ approach to NI Protocol: Donaldson


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/dup-not-interested-in-sticking-plaster-approach-to-ni-protocol-donaldson/ar-AAXw6fz?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=97589e216b8f4a74b194d610391184ec
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,877
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    This result shows how "democracy" very much depends on how you set the rules.

    NI uses the "single transferable vote" system. But, bizarrely, the statistics only show the First Preference Results. Ignoring the actual effect of the Transfers. Because I expect that the DUP got far more 2nd votes than Sinn Fein

    There are 2 main reasons why Sinn Fein have won. Firstly, the collapse in the SDLP vote has meant that a considerable majority of Catholics have voted Sinn Fein. Even natural SDLP supporters, wanting Sinn Fein to be the largest Party. Secondly, the rise of the staunchly pro-Unionist TUV Party has split the Unionist vote into 3.

    Different systems could cause at least 3 different outcomes.

    1. The system adopted-where no-one seems to be bothered to explain quite how people are elected, or what the actual numbers were once the votes were transferred. Because, in this system, the "first preference" votes are largely irrelevant

    2. Providing results truly based on numbers of votes for each side-the Unionist vote in total outnumbered the Irish nationalists. By approximately 2%. (40.1% to 38.1%)

    3. Were there to be a French-style election, whereby the 2 largest parties were to go to the final ballot, I think it entirely possible that the Alliance Party would win-because if they made the top 2, they would trounce either the DUP or Sinn Fein. Because the votes for either of those 2 would almost all transfer over to the Alliance Party

    The "largest party" bit is purely symbolic. It has always been the case that the Deputy Minister has the exact same powers as the First Minister. But symbolism means a lot in Northern Ireland

    Dominic Raab got away unchallenged on Sophie Ridge this morning, adding the the total of the votes that werent cast for Sinn Fein, and said that 58% voted in favour of no constitutional change.
    I thought that Sinn Fein made a very clever case for the DUP not to go off sulking, and I think they will face an angry reaction if they do.
    They probably need to make some changes to NI politics.
    The difference between the DUP and Sinn Fein is this.

    Both have some extremely dangerous people within their ranks.

    But Sinn Fein at least have some clever politicians.
    Voices: It will be the DUP – not Sinn Fein – that breaks up the UK




    As an ideology, unionism is isolating itself, as it presents no solutions in their attempt to keep things the way they are. Nobel peace laureate John Hume once said that if the word “no” was removed from the English language, then Ian Paisley would be speechless. The DUP have carried on this legacy: no to the NI protocol, no to the Good Friday Agreement, and no to democracy. They have no vision for the future, only nostalgia for a past that only exists in the dreams of unionists – and was a living nightmare for nationalists.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/voices-it-will-be-the-dup-not-sinn-fein-that-breaks-up-the-uk/ar-AAX4RHM?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5cb6c2bd57c44db4a6f7569d1ef1eaae
    Horrible journalism. Totally 1-sided.

    As an example, referring to the "Noble peace laureate John Hume." That would be the lifelong Nationalist politician John Hume, who for many years was Leader of the then-leading Catholic Party, the SDLP.

    There are deep-seated problems in relation to all sides in NI. And any article seeking to blame just 1 side should safely be ignored insofar as it pretends that just the 1 side is causing the problems.
    I think the "voices" articles are supposed to be opinions, and are therefore likely to be one sided.
    Fair comment.

    But some of the reporting is just terrible.

    As an example, that Sky article claiming that 54% of the MLAs are "content" with the protocol. Nonsense.

    It is Sinn Fein's avowed aim to permanently scrap the Protocol. By recreating a single country on the island of Ireland. They do not in any way support the Protocol. They just (understandably) see it as a means to get to a totally different end. They are seeking the permanent removal of the Protocol.

    The idea that any Party in Northern Ireland has sufficient clout to deal with the cost of living crisis is just pie in the sky.
    Lord Empey: The DUP have no-one to blame but themselves for disastrous election


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/lord-empey-the-dup-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves-for-disastrous-election/ar-AAXbf60?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f462f1228973464e898487de1be4e8c2
    This is all too typical of many of the politicians in Northern Ireland.

    True to say the DUP did not do well. But they did a lot better than the UUP, who are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I very much fear they will be overtaken by the TUV before long. Which, IMO, will certainly not help going forward.

    The First Minister/Deputy Minister is symbolic. Both have equal powers. But the UUP choose to focus on the Rules for First/Deputy. As though that really matters.

    While totally ignoring the World that the voters live in. And, incidentally, totally ignoring the rise of the Alliance Party.
    TUV voters in fact saved unionist seats, not cost them

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tuv-voters-in-fact-saved-unionist-seats-not-cost-them/ar-AAXdFL3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7a68b1a9abdf4fc684beee51137d5093
    What utter nonsense.

    The TUV attract the more die-hard Unionists. People who would never vote other than for a Unionist Party.

    They did not "save" a single seat. The DUP/UUP just got votes as 2nd/3rd choice, rather than 1st/2nd choice.

    And to pretend otherwise is delusional.
    Hail Boris Johnson, unwitting ‘hero’ of Irish reunification



    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/hail-boris-johnson-unwitting-hero-of-irish-reunification/ar-AAXwLvq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=fad79605d50342c885ae8979d7786107
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