Is my shove the right play here?

balder0y1

Am I wrong to shove this hand here?
With 31 players left and 16 getting paid. I know both the player who opened and Cabbaz who called have been relatively aggressive and play in big stake games (good players) etc. I didn't expect the flat to be Jacks. But regardless 55 with 13 or so bbs
Is it better to flat and pray for a 5 on flop and leave 11 bbs behind or is it just a shove there?


Any thoughts appreciated

Tikay10

@balder0y1


I've moved this to Poker Chat where it will get more views, &, I hope, a few replies.

balder0y1

Thank you

Essexphil

I think you can make a case for shoving, flatting or indeed folding.

My thought is that the fact there are 2 people already in the pot, thus increasing the implied odds, makes flatting marginally the better option, as set mining becomes more attractive. Had there only been 1 person in with you in the SB, then I would personally prefer the shove.

Must have been something of a surprise the way the hand ran out-I would have been more worried about the initial raiser in that position, and surprised at the strength of the caller.

The beauty of poker is how many different ways a hand may be played.

craigcu12

I am folding or flatting this but not shoving. If this is a PKO cabbaz will have more traps given that their are two shoving ranges in the blinds.

Cabbaz won't be as capped as you think because their are two short shoving stacks which he'll want to go all in against to win the PKO. His range will also be more narrow. Finally with it being multiway our fold equity is more lower


If dan opened and it got folded round to you then it would be close and I'd find some shoves because our hand will now have enough fold equity but when cabbaz calls our fold equity becomes too weak and we are not getting called by worse

In summery when you shove low PPs
you should ask yourself how wide their range is?
how strong is my fold equity?
will they call the shove with hands I dominate like weaker PP or Ax with a lower kicker?

The reason we shove low PP is to deny so much equity by folding out hands that have such good equity vs us preflop.

balder0y1

Essexphil said:

I think you can make a case for shoving, flatting or indeed folding.

My thought is that the fact there are 2 people already in the pot, thus increasing the implied odds, makes flatting marginally the better option, as set mining becomes more attractive. Had there only been 1 person in with you in the SB, then I would personally prefer the shove.

Must have been something of a surprise the way the hand ran out-I would have been more worried about the initial raiser in that position, and surprised at the strength of the caller.

The beauty of poker is how many different ways a hand may be played.

Great analysis and aligns with what was going on in my head I was so close to calling but hit the sod it button

SCOTFOX

I always tried to see cheap flops if i had low pocket pairs, and let it go if i missed the flop and someone bet. If you hit trips = happy days, if you miss, wait for a brighter day!

balder0y1

craigcu12 said:

I am folding or flatting this but not shoving. If this is a PKO cabbaz will have more traps given that their are two shoving ranges in the blinds.

Cabbaz won't be as capped as you think because their are two short shoving stacks which he'll want to go all in against to win the PKO. His range will also be more narrow. Finally with it being multiway our fold equity is more lower


If dan opened and it got folded round to you then it would be close and I'd find some shoves because our hand will now have enough fold equity but when cabbaz calls our fold equity becomes too weak and we are not getting called by worse

In summery when you shove low PPs
you should ask yourself how wide their range is?
how strong is my fold equity?
will they call the shove with hands I dominate like weaker PP or Ax with a lower kicker?

The reason we shove low PP is to deny so much equity by folding out hands that have such good equity vs us preflop.

Interesting indeed and thank you for your response

Allan23

Flatting button off 13 bigs - is that a thing here? Really thought it’d be shove fold.

Asho28

Not an easy spot and not one I'm completely sure of the correct answer to, but here's my two cents worth.

Personally, shoving is the least preferred option for me. Can't imagine our pocket 5s are likely to be in good shape against an UTG open and an UTG+1 flat and there are probably better spots we can look to try and double up in. Think UTG+1 flatting JJ is perfectly reasonable given the stack sizes- villain dependent obviously but I would flat Jacks some portion of the time here. I think we're likely to be dominated too often by at least one of the villains.
Also, given that we have 13 BBs, we don't really have any fold equity when we shove, especially if it's a bounty hunter (I'm assuming it is).

I think we can just about get away with flatting from the small blind here with 13BBs and try to set mine, but it's not ideal given our stack size.
Agree with @Allan23 though that we shouldn't really have much of a flatting range at all here with 13BBs.

Think folding is my preferred option, but then we have to gnash our teeth when a 5 turns up on the flop.

Could well be wrong, but not convinced shoving 5s is profitable here. Certainly don't blame you for doing so though.

rancid

Fold or 88+

Tedson

Small pairs are good to shove for 10-20bb when we have a lot of fold equity, I.e. against a CO/BTN open. Here, we're against 2 strong ranges, so have virtually zero FE (especially if it's a PKO?).

Cabbaz's range is the bigger concern here, because he shouldnt be flatting from the HJ with weak hands. Also, because he's nearly 50bb effective against UTG, he doesn't necessarily want to stack off with strong hands like JJ and AQs against an UTG 4-betting range, especially with the bubble approaching, so he'll have lots of strong hands in his flatting range. The weakest hands I'd expect Cabbaz to ever flat here would be something like QJs/KJs or 77/66, and even those hands would probably feel priced in to call your jam, especially if there's a bounty.

Mohican

Calling here is fine. Flop a set win big.
Shoving here is fine. Three things can happen. First, with your fold equity they'll all fold and you increase your stack by a 1/3 uncontested. Second, you're called a win a big pot. Third, you're called and lose. Long term, shoving will win you chips.However, when you're called you're likely be involved in a flip at best.
Simple way of looking at it of course which doesn't take into game dynamics and bounties however I think your play is fine especially with 14bb's.