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Keir Starmer is about to kill the Brexit dream for good

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  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,375
    HAYSIE said:


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
    This all assumes that Scotland would actually join the EU.

    If Scotland were to gain independence, it would be far easier to choose closer ties with the EU without actually joining.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
    This all assumes that Scotland would actually join the EU.

    If Scotland were to gain independence, it would be far easier to choose closer ties with the EU without actually joining.
    Isnt joining the EU one of the biggest selling points for gaining Independence?
    Bearing in mind the large majority that voted in favour of Remain, in the EU referendum.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,375
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
    This all assumes that Scotland would actually join the EU.

    If Scotland were to gain independence, it would be far easier to choose closer ties with the EU without actually joining.
    Isnt joining the EU one of the biggest selling points for gaining Independence?
    Bearing in mind the large majority that voted in favour of Remain, in the EU referendum.
    Yes. But it is impractical.

    Policing the border, where hardly anyone lives, would be next to impossible. And big business in Scotland is currently too closely linked to England economically.

    The Independence movement in Scotland needs a reset if it is to achieve its primary goal-independence. Much like the successful Brexit campaign, it needs to concentrate on the blue sky thinking, and leave the actual detail to after it has won.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
    This all assumes that Scotland would actually join the EU.

    If Scotland were to gain independence, it would be far easier to choose closer ties with the EU without actually joining.
    Isnt joining the EU one of the biggest selling points for gaining Independence?
    Bearing in mind the large majority that voted in favour of Remain, in the EU referendum.
    Yes. But it is impractical.

    Policing the border, where hardly anyone lives, would be next to impossible. And big business in Scotland is currently too closely linked to England economically.

    The Independence movement in Scotland needs a reset if it is to achieve its primary goal-independence. Much like the successful Brexit campaign, it needs to concentrate on the blue sky thinking, and leave the actual detail to after it has won.
    I might be wrong, but the actual detail seemed to be a stumbling block.
    The SNP used to dodge the currency issue, which didnt work in their favour.
    My impression was that the majority that suddenly appeared subsequent to the EU referendum was fuelled by the Independent Scotland would re-join the EU pitch.
    This majority didnt exist 2 years before.

    Similarly, we are told about the growing UK majority that are in favour of re-joining the EU.
    I wonder how much the knowledge that re-joining the EU would mean that we would have to adopt the Euro, would affect that majority.

    The UK re-joining the EU, and a Scottish independence referendum, both seem a long way off.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,375
    It is certainly the case that the SNP have been reluctant to engage in detail.

    Although that is not as bad as downright lying about membership of the EU, which is what the "Remain" side did in 2014.

    The SNP have time to reset. Simply because independence has taken a step backwards. And they will get more votes to break free from England, as opposed to actually rejoining the EU. Because, to me at least, "independence" is not swapping being part of 1 larger entity to another one.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,375
    This Government does not seem to appreciate recent history.

    Personally, I hope Scotland never chooses Independence. Although, not being Scottish, my opinion is pretty irrelevant.

    But-remember Brexit. The Remain campaign talking down to Leavers. Relying on Project Fear.

    Didn't end well, did it?
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    Essexphil said:

    It is certainly the case that the SNP have been reluctant to engage in detail.

    Although that is not as bad as downright lying about membership of the EU, which is what the "Remain" side did in 2014.

    The SNP have time to reset. Simply because independence has taken a step backwards. And they will get more votes to break free from England, as opposed to actually rejoining the EU. Because, to me at least, "independence" is not swapping being part of 1 larger entity to another one.

    I am not going to argue over this, because I dont know enough about it.
    The conclusions I drew were as follows.
    There was a 55/45% vote against independence in 2014.
    There was a 62/38% vote in favour of remaining in the EU in 2016.
    The SNP came straight out with the independent Scotland would re-join the EU pitch.
    This resulted in a majority being in favour of independence, according to the polls.
    I assumed that this committed to SNP to re-joining the EU, to maintain this majority.
    Although 7 years after the EU referendum, Scotland doesnt seem any closer to getting a referendum, or re-joining the EU.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449



    The ‘Yes’ side grew further, in the aftermath of the 2016 Brexit referendum, in which Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

    Support for Scottish independence nudged up to 50% for the first time in 2019, soon after Boris Johnson became prime minister.


    https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/scottish-independence-polls/
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:


    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    of course he is, all the scottish folk are, i explained that to you the other day in the other thread haha............electing bojo practically sealed the deal up here lmao
    There clearly wasnt a majority in 2014.
    There seemed to be a majority immediately after the EU referendum.
    Although that seems to have gone.
    The polling for the last 18 months seems to show that the majority are not in favour of Independence.
    I think the currency has been an issue in the past, but that now seems clear.

    However it does seem a long way off.
    The SNP seem less popular.
    Their leader is certainly less popular than the last one.
    There is an article above that suggests than joining the EU could take 10 years, after establishing a new currency, and the application being accepted.
    So maybe 10 years after getting a majority in a referendum.
    There are a number of difficulties, like actually getting a referendum, borders with England, and NI, and adopting the Euro may prove to be unpopular with voters.
    This all assumes that Scotland would actually join the EU.

    If Scotland were to gain independence, it would be far easier to choose closer ties with the EU without actually joining.
    Do you think that is enough to sway voters.
    Keir Starmer is already threatening closer ties for the whole of the UK.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,375
    Referendums are rare. And are a blunt, inaccurate tool for what tend to be complex issues.

    The key to them tends to be when you ask the question. And how you phrase the question.

    To use the Brexit example, the vote was purely in whether to leave the EU. Nothing about what we were actually going to do afterwards.

    In 2014, the major argument used by those opposed to Independence was that if people voted for Independence, they would have to leave the EU. Whereas, if they said no, they would stay in the EU. And, for Scotland (like London and Gibraltar) staying in the EU was seen as very important.

    A 2nd Referendum was refused while Independence was likely as we left the EU. And now the time has passed, at least for now.

    Much is being made of the SNP losing popularity. But it is still likely to win the most seats in Scotland at the next election.

    Meanwhile, articles deriding the pro-Independence movement in terms like that stupid Express article just make Independence more likely in the future.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    Essexphil said:

    Referendums are rare. And are a blunt, inaccurate tool for what tend to be complex issues.

    The key to them tends to be when you ask the question. And how you phrase the question.

    To use the Brexit example, the vote was purely in whether to leave the EU. Nothing about what we were actually going to do afterwards.

    In 2014, the major argument used by those opposed to Independence was that if people voted for Independence, they would have to leave the EU. Whereas, if they said no, they would stay in the EU. And, for Scotland (like London and Gibraltar) staying in the EU was seen as very important.

    A 2nd Referendum was refused while Independence was likely as we left the EU. And now the time has passed, at least for now.

    Much is being made of the SNP losing popularity. But it is still likely to win the most seats in Scotland at the next election.

    Meanwhile, articles deriding the pro-Independence movement in terms like that stupid Express article just make Independence more likely in the future.

    The Scottish independence referendum was very clear, yes or no.
    If you accept that the minority that voted for independence in 2014, became a majority post the EU referendum, and the SNPs promise to re-join, then surely if you diluted that promise by suggesting closer ties instead, then you would reduce the number in favour.
    As Keir Starmer is promising very much the same thing in respect of the whole of the UK, then there would be no gain in respect of the EU, when voting for independence.

    I dont think you can argue with the probability that had the EU referendum occurred prior to the independence vote, there would now be an independent Scotland.
    Although I am not in favour, I am happy with the UK as it is.
  • Options
    HENDRIK62HENDRIK62 Member Posts: 3,168
    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    I think so, I keep bobbing back and forth, loads of good friends in England and Wales, worries about alienating them, pretty sure we could become a big enough economy to support ourselves despite the usual arguments that get trotted out.
    Its a nuanced argument, unfortunately everyone portrays it in black and white (like everything TBF)
    If Westminster got its act together and stopped concentrating so much on the South East (pretty sure most of the rest of England feel the same) I would be much more open to remaining.
    I voted 'yes' in the first referendum and probably would again but nothing is set in stone
    My father was a lifelong SNP member and then became a local councillor, but I used to vote labour.....never again though, felt so let down by them over the referendum (they were between a rock and a hard place tbf) and their subsequent actions.

    I am a Europhile and would gladly rejoin the EU but can absolutely understand others not wanting to, and as @Essexphil said I don't think that rejoining the EU is as big a carrot as people think.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    such a shi t clickbait title, if you actually read the report .....

    "However, if Scotland were to became an independent country, they would be welcomed back with open arms into the European Union.

    "Of course, they would have to pass the same process as other candidate states, but since Scotland previously applied the full acquis I would expect this process to go much faster.

    "The people of Scotland could count on myself and many other MEPs' support in this process."

    The SNP's most recent EU re-entry strategy was outlined in the Building a New Scotland report series.

    The Scottish Government has stated its intention to use Article 49 as a "tried and tested" route to EU membership.\

    where is the stated 'humiliation' ?
    Are you in favour of Independence?
    I think so, I keep bobbing back and forth, loads of good friends in England and Wales, worries about alienating them, pretty sure we could become a big enough economy to support ourselves despite the usual arguments that get trotted out.
    Its a nuanced argument, unfortunately everyone portrays it in black and white (like everything TBF)
    If Westminster got its act together and stopped concentrating so much on the South East (pretty sure most of the rest of England feel the same) I would be much more open to remaining.
    I voted 'yes' in the first referendum and probably would again but nothing is set in stone
    My father was a lifelong SNP member and then became a local councillor, but I used to vote labour.....never again though, felt so let down by them over the referendum (they were between a rock and a hard place tbf) and their subsequent actions.

    I am a Europhile and would gladly rejoin the EU but can absolutely understand others not wanting to, and as @Essexphil said I don't think that rejoining the EU is as big a carrot as people think.
    There were less people in Scotland in favour of leaving the EU, than those in favour of leaving the UK.
    I cant help thinking that some of those that were marginally in favour of independence, or sitting on the fence, voted no in the Scottish referendum, as they were against leaving the EU.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the SNP promise to re-join, gave them a small majority in independence polls.
    Although this seems to have disappeared in the intervening years.
    I think people are less likely to be concerned by events that may happen in the distant future.
    It looks like it is going to take years to get another independence referendum, and maybe 10 years to re-join the EU, assuming there is a yes vote.
  • Options
    HENDRIK62HENDRIK62 Member Posts: 3,168
    HAYSIE said:
    more gaslightling by the vile scottish tories, its was their sh ite brexit that caused all the issues for the fishermen- so many voted no because of all their fearmongering (now that IS a sector that would likely have voted differently had they seen the future in crystal ball a few years ago)
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    more gaslightling by the vile scottish tories, its was their sh ite brexit that caused all the issues for the fishermen- so many voted no because of all their fearmongering (now that IS a sector that would likely have voted differently had they seen the future in crystal ball a few years ago)
    SNP's secret legal advice on joining the EU at centre of yet another privacy battle
    Ministers have been trying to block publication of the papers since 2019, although the sections that HAVE been released show it could take a separate Scotland 20 YEARS to join the bloc



    https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snps-secret-legal-advice-joining-27189532
  • Options
    HENDRIK62HENDRIK62 Member Posts: 3,168
    HAYSIE said:

    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    more gaslightling by the vile scottish tories, its was their sh ite brexit that caused all the issues for the fishermen- so many voted no because of all their fearmongering (now that IS a sector that would likely have voted differently had they seen the future in crystal ball a few years ago)
    SNP's secret legal advice on joining the EU at centre of yet another privacy battle
    Ministers have been trying to block publication of the papers since 2019, although the sections that HAVE been released show it could take a separate Scotland 20 YEARS to join the bloc



    https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/snps-secret-legal-advice-joining-27189532
    Why do you keep posting articles in very right wing conservative euro sceptic rags......?

    if you are looking for a balanced point of view its the last place to go
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,449
    HENDRIK62 said:

    HAYSIE said:
    more gaslightling by the vile scottish tories, its was their sh ite brexit that caused all the issues for the fishermen- so many voted no because of all their fearmongering (now that IS a sector that would likely have voted differently had they seen the future in crystal ball a few years ago)
    "These half-baked proposals show that the SNP are ****-bent on aligning our fishermen once again with European Union rules, rather than helping to deliver the benefits available to them now.

    "SNP ministers are kidding themselves if they think an independent Scotland would be able to reform the hated Common Fisheries Policy, which deeply damaged our fishermen and coastal communities for decades.

    "We will hold SNP Parliamentarians to account over their wish to rejoin.

    "The nationalist coalition have already shown how out-of-touch they are with coastal communities and the industry this year by proposing their reckless plans for Highly Protected Marine Areas.

    "It is rich of them to talk about supporting Scotland's marine sector when they've just cut £3million from marine Scotland's budget.

    "Mairi Gougeon - the SNP's Rural Affairs Secretary - should focus on the real priorities of those living and working in rural Scotland, rather than aiming to break up the United Kingdom at every turn."

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/snp-blasted-for-being-****-bent-on-joining-eu-and-leaving-fishermen-with-3m-black-hole/ar-AA1kpuLm?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b1a13cbacf5e42ce9b2f2b938d9ea0f4&ei=73
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