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No Brexit renegotiation without free movement, warns Barnier

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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,368
    I don't get why this sort of discussion is supposed to be a "betrayal of the 2016 referendum". It is nothing of the sort.

    The 2016 Referendum only had 1 question, and 1 issue. Should be in the EU, or not?

    The majority said we should not be in. But many of that 52% wanted to be outside of the EU, but inside the European Free Trade Area. Whether it be the "Swiss deal", the "Norway deal" or various others.

    It is clearly economically beneficial to have close ties to the EU. I think the key sticking point will be Schengen-style agreements. For me, the natural compromise would be to allow Big Business to have Schengen status for the purpose of potential UK business, without a more general right to cross borders. After all, we are an island-not like Switzerland, that is surrounded by EU land borders.

    The Right Wing of the Tories will object to us subscribing to EU employment protections. But it seems to me to be part of the price for frictionless trade.

    We need to be in a "Common Market". Without the other commitments, such as Single Currency, Freedom of Movement, move towards a Single Army etc.

    Other countries have managed this fairly easily. And so should we.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    Essexphil said:

    I don't get why this sort of discussion is supposed to be a "betrayal of the 2016 referendum". It is nothing of the sort.

    The 2016 Referendum only had 1 question, and 1 issue. Should be in the EU, or not?

    The majority said we should not be in. But many of that 52% wanted to be outside of the EU, but inside the European Free Trade Area. Whether it be the "Swiss deal", the "Norway deal" or various others.

    It is clearly economically beneficial to have close ties to the EU. I think the key sticking point will be Schengen-style agreements. For me, the natural compromise would be to allow Big Business to have Schengen status for the purpose of potential UK business, without a more general right to cross borders. After all, we are an island-not like Switzerland, that is surrounded by EU land borders.

    The Right Wing of the Tories will object to us subscribing to EU employment protections. But it seems to me to be part of the price for frictionless trade.

    We need to be in a "Common Market". Without the other commitments, such as Single Currency, Freedom of Movement, move towards a Single Army etc.

    Other countries have managed this fairly easily. And so should we.

    I have accepted the fact that a small majority unfortunately voted in favour of leaving, and that we have left.
    I also appreciate that Brexit is nowhere near done.
    Labour seem to be afraid of even mentioning Brexit.

    However there have been some very pro EU articles posted on this thread, as well as some surprising ones.
    One that I would file under surprising is the one that the very enthusiastic Brexiteer Theresa Villiers wrote saying that,
    Rees-Mogg’s plans to axe all EU laws will cripple Whitehall.
    Going on to say that the proposals would take up vast amounts of civil service time and would involve undoing legislation that, in many cases, was broadly popular and good for the country.
    Others for consideration are as follows,
    'How's Brexit going?' British politics mocked at home and abroad.
    Brexit: Rejoining EU takes record 14-point lead in latest poll.
    UK turning against Brexit and Tories look doomed: top pollster.
    Mark Carney doubles down on claim that Brexit has shrunk UK economy – UK politics live.
    Mark Carney defends claim UK economy has shrunk from 90% size of Germany's to 70% since Brexit.
    Labour should reverse on not reversing Brexit.
    Brexiteer minister claims impact of NI Protocol ‘not understood at the time’
    Cabinet minister Chris Heaton-Harris risked a backlash over Brexit on Thursday when he claimed the authors of the Northern Ireland Protocol did not understand the impact it would have.
    Brexit trade deal with Australia ‘not very good’, admits ex-cabinet minister.
    Brexit: Plans for costly new tests on goods before sale shelved in another U-turn.
    OBR: Brexit has had ‘significant adverse impact’ on UK trade.
    Zurich Insurance to move holding company from Ireland due to Brexit.

    I appreciate that going anywhere near the EU under the current Tory Party would be impossible, never mind rejoining.
    Although this does seem to be cropping up a lot more all of a sudden.

    Without going into a huge pitch on the financial implications.
    Anyone interested in seeing the UK remaining intact, would surely be in favour.
    Doing so would probably remove any majority that there may be in favour of Scottish Independence.
    As well as remove the Irish protocol, making a United Ireland far less likely.
    In addition it would make recruitment in a number of sectors much less difficult.

    I wonder how long it will take for the effects of Brexit to become impossible to ignore?

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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    edited November 2022
    Essexphil said:

    I don't get why this sort of discussion is supposed to be a "betrayal of the 2016 referendum". It is nothing of the sort.

    The 2016 Referendum only had 1 question, and 1 issue. Should be in the EU, or not?

    The majority said we should not be in. But many of that 52% wanted to be outside of the EU, but inside the European Free Trade Area. Whether it be the "Swiss deal", the "Norway deal" or various others.

    It is clearly economically beneficial to have close ties to the EU. I think the key sticking point will be Schengen-style agreements. For me, the natural compromise would be to allow Big Business to have Schengen status for the purpose of potential UK business, without a more general right to cross borders. After all, we are an island-not like Switzerland, that is surrounded by EU land borders.

    The Right Wing of the Tories will object to us subscribing to EU employment protections. But it seems to me to be part of the price for frictionless trade.

    We need to be in a "Common Market". Without the other commitments, such as Single Currency, Freedom of Movement, move towards a Single Army etc.

    Other countries have managed this fairly easily. And so should we.

    BREXIT DEBATE: Would you still vote to leave the EU?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVYSDJZN6dE
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    No economic benefits from Brexit so far, David Davis admits



    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/no-economic-benefits-brexit-far-124553897.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    edited November 2022
    Essexphil said:

    I don't get why this sort of discussion is supposed to be a "betrayal of the 2016 referendum". It is nothing of the sort.

    The 2016 Referendum only had 1 question, and 1 issue. Should be in the EU, or not?

    The majority said we should not be in. But many of that 52% wanted to be outside of the EU, but inside the European Free Trade Area. Whether it be the "Swiss deal", the "Norway deal" or various others.

    It is clearly economically beneficial to have close ties to the EU. I think the key sticking point will be Schengen-style agreements. For me, the natural compromise would be to allow Big Business to have Schengen status for the purpose of potential UK business, without a more general right to cross borders. After all, we are an island-not like Switzerland, that is surrounded by EU land borders.

    The Right Wing of the Tories will object to us subscribing to EU employment protections. But it seems to me to be part of the price for frictionless trade.

    We need to be in a "Common Market". Without the other commitments, such as Single Currency, Freedom of Movement, move towards a Single Army etc.

    Other countries have managed this fairly easily. And so should we.

    The Guardian view on Brexit heresy in the government: reality begins to bite




    According to polls, the number of Britons who believe it was a mistake to leave the EU now stands at 56%, compared with 32% who stand by the decision. Releasing its economic forecast before last week’s autumn statement, after being previously sidelined by Mr Kwarteng, the Office for Budget Responsibility stated baldly that Brexit had delivered a “significant adverse impact” on trade. The public has also noticed that Britain is the only G7 country still to have a smaller economy compared with before the pandemic, and has the worst growth rate. The flagship post-Brexit trade deal with Australia was “not actually a very good deal”, according to the former environment secretary, George Eustice.

    The public’s take on these cumulative pieces of bad news – delivered as the country prepares for a record fall in living standards and a prolonged recession – is coalescing into a new common sense: the hard Brexit that Mr Johnson orchestrated, and on which Ms Truss attempted to double down, has palpably failed. For Mr Sunak, the leader of an ungovernable, divided party, it is – as he surely knows – too late to rescue the situation. But for Keir Starmer’s Labour, the Swiss speculation is another sign that an opportunity is opening up.




    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/guardian-view-brexit-heresy-government-184731685.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
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    Bean81Bean81 Member Posts: 554
    The people in the OP are all thick, some hypocritical like Dyson. Brexit was/is so stupid it's unreal. All in the name of "sovereignty".
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 163,250
    Bean81 said:

    The people in the OP are all thick, some hypocritical like Dyson. Brexit was/is so stupid it's unreal. All in the name of "sovereignty".

    @Bean81


    It's really hard to grasp how these things happen.

    How did the racist POS Trump get voted in?

    How did Boris manage to get elected, & lie to everyone for so long?

    How did Truss end up as PM?

    How did we vote for Brexit when it was so obviously going to be bad for us. Surely there's not THAT many who wish to deny migrants the chance of a better life?


    It's all very hard to understand.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    Tikay10 said:

    Bean81 said:

    The people in the OP are all thick, some hypocritical like Dyson. Brexit was/is so stupid it's unreal. All in the name of "sovereignty".

    @Bean81


    It's really hard to grasp how these things happen.

    Or whether they could happen again.

    How did the racist POS Trump get voted in?

    Could he get voted in again?

    How did Boris manage to get elected, & lie to everyone for so long?

    Despite all that he did, Graham Brady confirmed that he had enough support from MPs to enter the leadership race.
    Had it gone to the membership, he would probably been favourite, and back in number 10.


    How did Truss end up as PM?

    This surely couldnt happen again.

    How did we vote for Brexit when it was so obviously going to be bad for us. Surely there's not THAT many who wish to deny migrants the chance of a better life?

    The latest big poll showed that 55% are no longer in favour, 35% are, and 10% dont know.
    Yet politicians seem happy to ignore the mess.


    As far as migrants are concerned many people would prefer to see a little control on the numbers, and probably dont think that spending £7 million per day on their hotel bills, is money well spent in the current economic climate.


    It's all very hard to understand.
    We dont seem to learn very much.
    There is a saying that goes something like getting up tomorrow, doing exactly the same thing, but expecting a different result, is the definition of madness.
    So there you go.


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    rabdenirorabdeniro Member Posts: 4,276
    We live in a so called Democracy, but a lot of these things don't look very democratic, the people voted for Brexit so you have to make the best of it and get on with it.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    rabdeniro said:

    We live in a so called Democracy, but a lot of these things don't look very democratic, the people voted for Brexit so you have to make the best of it and get on with it.

    Dont you think that you can ever change your mind?
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    rabdenirorabdeniro Member Posts: 4,276
    I change my mind on loads of things every day but it makes no difference, people voted for Brexit, we've got it, get on with it, do you want another vote ?, would Europe want Britain back ?, how much more money would that cost ?, not every problem is down to Brexit, Covid didn't help, Tories still in power does'nt help, people voted for them, it's a democarcy, were up shyte creek make the best of it.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    rabdeniro said:

    I change my mind on loads of things every day but it makes no difference, people voted for Brexit, we've got it, get on with it, do you want another vote ?, would Europe want Britain back ?, how much more money would that cost ?, not every problem is down to Brexit, Covid didn't help, Tories still in power does'nt help, people voted for them, it's a democarcy, were up shyte creek make the best of it.

    On one particular day, more than 6 years ago, a small majority voted in favour of Brexit.
    It was predicted that before we even left the EU, the majority would be in favour of remaining.
    This was because in general terms old people voted for Brexit, while youngsters voted to remain.
    So the prediction was based on the oldies dying out, and the youngsters that reached voting age being in favour of remaining.
    The latest poll had a majority of 20% in favour of remaining, rejoining, or whatever.
    I would agree that not all our problems have been caused by Brexit, but it has been a bit of a mess.
    So what happens next?
    Strange that the Tories argue that we are stronger together, when talking about Scottish Independence, but not when it comes to Europe.
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    rabdenirorabdeniro Member Posts: 4,276
    Who would believe anything the Tories say ?.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    rabdeniro said:

    Who would believe anything the Tories say ?.

    They are a bad bunch.
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    tomgooduntomgoodun Member Posts: 3,743
    rabdeniro said:

    Who would believe anything the Tories say ?.

    The people that voted for them ( at the time)
    Now people have seen them for what they are, the Polls are pointed towards them being voted out.
    Which begs the question, how do those who voted to leave feel now we have some clarity as to what leaving actually means….
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    tomgoodun said:

    rabdeniro said:

    Who would believe anything the Tories say ?.

    The people that voted for them ( at the time)
    Now people have seen them for what they are, the Polls are pointed towards them being voted out.
    Which begs the question, how do those who voted to leave feel now we have some clarity as to what leaving actually means….
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