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Thurrock Council compared to Sky Poker

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  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    That's the difference between us and France, right there.

    If this happened in France, there would be mass strikes and people on the streets.

    Whereas we sign a petition...
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    edited February 2023


    Thurrock council taxpayers will have to stump up an extra £160 a year.

    Thurrock's ruling Conservative group has proposed its share of council tax in the borough will increase by 7.99 per cent - the maximum it can.

    Added to that figure is a 'ringfenced' adults social care precept of two per cent, taking the total to the maximum 9.99 per cent recently allowed by the government. Normally councils can only increase their share of council tax by five per cent.

    Thurrock Nub News understands there has been significant opposition within the Conservative group who do not wish to impose the full levy possible. Senior officers reached out to opposition members to canvas their intentions as to what level of increase they would support. Nub News has been told opposition councillors have indicated they will oppose any increase above five per cent.

    The cabinet meets next week after intital meetings on the cash-strapped council's finances were delayed - which in turn led to a delay in the full council meeting which gets to vote on the budget for the next financial year on Wednesday, 1 March.

    It's been a tortuous few weeks for the Conservative leadership, as Thurrock Nub News has been told several members of the Tory group had indicated they would not support the possible total 9.9 per cent rise - which has been allowed by the government after an appeal from the council leadership as it bids to chip away at an operating budget deficit of hundreds of millions of pounds.

    https://thurrock.nub.news/news/local-news/thurrock-council-taxpayers-will-have-to-stump-up-an-extra-ps160-a-year-171634?fbclid=IwAR1PgohHx5qgrJrVvgmZYuups7SX1LNaX8rqCJj_3fmFhaSordtZPMDhPnw
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    The key point here is that it will not chip away at the deficit.

    The deficit is massive-it dwarfs income. Interest on it will dwarf any increase in income. We live in a civilised society-so I would like these Councillors to be voted out now (if merely stupid) or prosecuted (if deliberate/reckless).

    As opposed to being lined up against a wall and shot.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Essexphil said:

    The key point here is that it will not chip away at the deficit.

    The deficit is massive-it dwarfs income. Interest on it will dwarf any increase in income. We live in a civilised society-so I would like these Councillors to be voted out now (if merely stupid) or prosecuted (if deliberate/reckless).

    As opposed to being lined up against a wall and shot.

    The local elections are coming in May, we will see what happens then.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    edited February 2023
    lucy4 said:

    Essexphil said:

    The key point here is that it will not chip away at the deficit.

    The deficit is massive-it dwarfs income. Interest on it will dwarf any increase in income. We live in a civilised society-so I would like these Councillors to be voted out now (if merely stupid) or prosecuted (if deliberate/reckless).

    As opposed to being lined up against a wall and shot.

    The local elections are coming in May, we will see what happens then.
    What staggers me is that Conservative HQ seem to be doing precisely nothing about all this. Surely all sitting Tory Councillors who had any part in this fiasco should not be standing for re-election. Firstly, because it sends out a terrible message. And secondly, unless the voters are mad, sitting Tory Councillors (as opposed to fresh ones) should get slaughtered at the polls.

    I have always considered that the Tory Party is better organised than the Labour Party. But not now. Where is the leadership, from the PM or the Chairman of the Party?

    Compare/contrast with Starmer's clear stance in relation to Corbyn.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    Here is the latest set of half-truths and blatant lies from Cllr Snell, who appears to be the man who is irresponsible for finance for Thurrock. He is either the most stupid man alive, or he believes the people of Thurrock are.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-64741541

    To give brief highlights:-

    1. It is clear that Thurrock expected to receive £30 million a year from this "investment". He says investment-I say over £1billion of unsecured lending to a man who did not live in Thurrock, and didn't have a pot to p1ss in. Compare/contrast with Banks, that lent later, lent less, but had security on their loan, so were paid back first

    2. The rise will not cost "£144" extra a year. The current Council Tax for a Band D in Thurrock is £1735 per annum. So you need to also add in any increases on the local part, the Police, the Fire Brigade etc. And then there will be the separate 2% increase on the total amount for the social precept, which will be another £35-40 on top. The total increase will be about £200.

    3. Why should Thurrock have the "lowest Council tax in Essex"? To give an example, in my area (Tendring) Band D Council tax is currently £1923. Higher at least in part because we were not relying on a non-existent "income" stream. Thurrock Council taxpayers should not have to pay for these loans-but they should effectively pay back the previous illusory reductions in Council Tax

    4. I am fascinated by the thought that no Tory Councillors are apparently going to break ranks on this issue
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    edited February 2023
    Going back to the example of Thurrock and Sky Poker. Let's put Thurrock as a Sky Bet depositor, and run the examples.

    Suppose a punter has an income of £100,000. Out of that, he is supposed to pay his Mortgage, his kids' school fees, and his mum's Care Home fees. But, instead of paying those things out of his income, he has borrowed all those monies from elsewhere.

    Then he has bet £1 million on what he believed was a sure thing. Not his own money-someone else's. No stop-loss, no other safeguards. And lost.

    He wants to carry on betting with Sky. Anyone think that is going to happen?
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Council ruling group defends its 'tough decisions' in wake of emotive meeting that inflicted significant increase on local taxpayers' bills.

    Thurrock Council's PR team swept into action moments after Conservative members voted through a 9.9 per cent increase in the borough's local council tax precept.

    The decision - part of a deal struck between the council and fellow Conservatives on government - was reached after a long and, at times, heated debate in the council chamber on Wednesday evening.

    By forcing the rise through, it now seems likely the administration that wracked up hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt through its botched policies, will be able to effectively borrow more money from the government to cover its losses.

    In the short term it may paper over some of the gaping crack in the council finances but - despite assurances to the contrary from some of the ruling Conservative group it is inevitable that huge cuts will be taken to services over the next few years and many jobs will be axed.

    What seems likely, until at least the elections in 2024, is that the Conservatives will now retain control of the council for another year.

    Had today's rise not been confirmed, the government had threatened to step in and take control - which would probably have meant 'standing down' all the elected councillors.

    Currently, with 30 incumbent councillors, the Tories hold a majority of 11 seats.

    Just eight Conservative councillors are up for re-election in May so even if they lost all those polls, Conservative leader Cllr mark Coxshall will still command a majority for the next municipal year.

    Several Tories failed to show for this evening's meeting - Nub News understands some were unhappy with the decision to opt for a 9.9 increase - but it appears the courage of conviction of some of them did not extend to standing up to be counted.

    The meeting was reported in full, live as it happened, on Thurrock Nub News.

    Shortly after the meeting ended, the council issued an official resume of the meeting, stating: "Thurrock councillors approved a council tax increase of 7.99%, plus a 2% adult social care precept."

    It made no mention of the concerted opposition to the rise, nor the numbers in the vote. The Tories won the vote 24-15 and that prompted an angry reaction from the public gallery, including one resident who expressed his views vociferously (see video).

    https://youtu.be/tSvevyrp8Qs

    https://thurrock.nub.news/news/local-news/council-ruling-group-defends-its-tough-decisions-in-wake-of-emotive-meeting-that-inflicted-significant-incease-on-local-taxpayers-bills-173814?fbclid=IwAR3OMGXymfLD72dl1i5hsoixQBwn5aSuCWuHmD4wdYoBD2uEAm9ufpGTl_I
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    These "tough decisions" are like putting a sticking plaster on a missing leg.

    Still haven't come clean on exactly how much is owed. It is probably between £1.2 Billion-1.5 Billion. Shortfall on next 2 years' budgets of between £320 million to £460 million. They can't even say how much money they are short.

    Meanwhile, their "solution" is an 8% rise in receipts for Council tax. Which will probably bring in an extra £20-25 million, and possibly £30 million of sales. That is before we account for inflation and the cost of servicing that massive debt.

    So-over £1 billion in debt. £400 million in budget shortfall. and it is unclear if that is part of the debt, or extra on top of that. With a "solution", before inflation and costs, of less than 5% of the debt.

    There are only 2 possible answers. Either they are continuing to live in a fantasy world where they are showing criminal disregard for the realities if the situation they have placed themselves in. Or they are deliberately misleading the taxpayers of Thurrock.

    I can see why some Councillors are now refusing to attend. Because to actively continue in this farce leaves people open to criminal prosecutions.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Apparently it's all our fault for the mess the council finances are in...

  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Thurrock Council's £1,100 a day new boss arrives at the Town Hall.


    Cllr Mark Coxshall, left, greets Dr Dave Smith.

    Thurrock Council's new managing director arrived in the borough today to start work.

    Dr Dave Smith was appointed by the government to take a grip on the council's administration and he was enthusiastically greeted at the doors of the Town Hall in Grays by Conservative council leader Mark Coxshall.

    Cllr Coxshall, who has served since 2016 on the council's cabinet which drove forward the calamitous and failed 'borrow-to-invest' policy that brought the council to its knees with a combined debt of around £1.5 billion, says he is looking forward to a 'recovery' plan.

    He said: "I look forward to working hand-in-hand with him as we drive forward our recovery to ensure Thurrock Council has a future in which it is sustainable and is the best it can be.

    "Dave brings with him great experience and expertise having held senior positions across a number of local authorities in England."

    Dr Smith's appointment, which will last at least a year, was announced last week by local government minister Lee Rowley as part an expansion of the ongoing intervention at Thurrock led by a Commissioner team from Essex County Council.

    On arrival in the borough he said: "Thurrock Council is facing some of the greatest challenges ever faced by a local authority, and the scale of the task ahead should not be underestimated.

    "It will require a collective determination, perseverance and understanding from members, officers, businesses and all our partners across Thurrock, to make the difficult decisions and take the action needed to turn the council around so that it has solid foundations for the future.

    "I will be focused on working together with colleague commissioners, elected members and officers, as well as listening to residents' views, to continue to make the right choices which are required for improvement and recovery.

    This will be the only way of restoring confidence in the Council and ensuring it meets the priority needs of Thurrock's communities."
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    THURROCK council has ceased collection of brown bins for the foreseeable future just one month after reintroducing them reports the Local Democracy Reporting Service.

    The garden waste bin service has been axed and there are currently no plans to resume it.

    In April, prior to the local elections, the council reintroduced the service after a pause, collecting garden waste to be composted on alternate weeks.

    Following the elections, a notice has been posted on Thurrock Council’s website informing residents there will be no brown bin collections “until further notice”.

    The cash-strapped council, which is currently being run by Essex County Council commissioners, has previously warned it will only be able to finance statutory services.

    The brown bin service doesn’t fall within this category.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    edited June 2023
    Some local Councillors beggar belief. Here is the long-awaited report into how & why Thurrock Council, who have an annual £150 million total budget to run all of its services, have managed to run up a debt well in excess of £1 BILLION, including lending £655 million to some random guy without any security.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65916073

    1 sentence sums up this lunacy perfectly. The current Tory leader stated:-

    "Dr Dave Smith, the new chief executive and managing director commissioner for the council, pointed out the report had recognised "areas of good practice"."

    I'm reminded of the old legal joke where the Defence Counsel asks the Court to show mercy, as his Client is an orphan.

    And the Judge replies that the Court is well aware of that. Not least because his Client is on trial, accused of murdering both his parents...
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    Incidentally, this Report was finalised last month, but only released today.

    I wonder why....
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Copied below is the part that stands out to me also the people who made those decisions should be held to account regardless if they've resigned or not. Meanwhile our services have been cut to the bare minimum, not that it affects the disgraced councillors as they've made their money and **** off. Even more annoying is that the Conservatives remained in control after the local elections in May.

    The BVI report said the council's "unique investment strategy" could be traced back to May 2016 when it invested £24m in a solar farm in Swindon operated by Rockfire/Toucan.

    Mr McArdle said in 2017-18, the council gave the then finance director Sean Clark permission to increase "non-specified" investments from £200m to £550m, and the cash limit for any one external fund manager from £75m up to £425m.

    "This is an extraordinary expansion in the delegated authority of officers," said the report.

    The value of the investments were approaching £1bn by early 2020 and there were plans to increase that to £2bn in future years, the report said.

    Mr McArdle said "serious issues" were raised by July 2021 when £655m had been lent solely to Rockfire/Toucan for solar farm investments.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    The simple fact is that this was all highly illegal.

    They gambled money they could not afford to lose. They gambled other people's money. They gambled money that they did not have. Without any sort of security or due diligence.

    Lots of other Councils started doing this. And every other Council realised the madness, and stopped.

    The Council's annual £150 million-ish budget is almost all spent on public services. It might possibly have £1 million to punt off in a reckless way-but never £1 billion. Or indeed the £425/550 million agreed spends.

    And the morons at the Council still talk about getting their money back and/or getting back on track. Nonsense. The person they lent the money to has squandered most of the money. And what little is left will go to the secured creditors.

    And the Council won't ever be able to service the interest on their debts. Never mind the debt itself.

    Tell me this-why on earth has there been no criminal prosecutions, and why no new law making this sort of investment strategy with public money illegal?
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    Yet more great decisions made by TBC.

    The true cost of A13 bungled project - which leading councillors attempted to hide from residents. Budget was busted by £49.6 million and residents have to pick up the tab.

    The cost of the long-delayed and secretive A13 road widening scheme soared to more than £147 million – 51 per cent higher than the expected cost, it has emerged.

    The A13 Stanford-le-Hope bypass has been widened from two to three lanes in both directions, from the junction with the A128 Orsett **** roundabout.

    A new report to Thurrock's cabinet says the cost of the scheme now totals £147.4 million and the cash-strapped council will have to pay £49.6 million for the overspend.

    The original budget forecast for the project, approved by cabinet in 2014, was £90million, funded wholly from external grants and other external contributions.

    This budget forecast was later increased, with the addition of a further grant from the South East Local Enterprise Partnership, to £97.8m.

    In December 2016, the council was told the financial risk of the project rested with the council and that any additional spend above the revised figure, would have to be met by the council.

    The overspend has been funded by Thurrock Council through "prudential borrowing".

    The borrowing will incur a yearly charge and the additional cost will be £1.44million per annum for 40 years for the council which currently has a £1.3 billion debt.

    The scheme began in 2014 and was beset by delays.

    Last week councillors who questioned the delays and the rising costs said they were kept in the dark but the recently published Best Value Report by Government appointed commissioners shows cabinet members in the Conservative administration, were aware of the problems.

    A report to cabinet, which will meet on Wednesday (,12 July) says: "The main issue was that original scheme costings were based on a preliminary design and certain detailed design elements of the scheme were either not included or underestimated, such as the utilities diversion works and drainage; which turned out to be significant additional costs.

    "Whilst forecasted contingencies, based on the preliminary design, were included in the original forecast, these were inadequate given the variance between the original forecast and the projected outturn. The lack of understanding of the ground conditions also resulted in significant costs being incurred, this was a particular problem in the construction of the Orsett Bridge roundabout."

    The report adds the scheme will reduced congestion and resultant pollution, improve journey times and support further economic growth not only in Thurrock but across the whole south Essex corridor.
  • lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,933
    The corrupt Conservative council are still trying to cover their own ar ses despite taking the council in to £1.5 Billion of debt. There should be public enquiries in to all those councils who are in similar situations.


  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,771
    edited July 2023
    lucy4 said:

    The corrupt Conservative council are still trying to cover their own ar ses despite taking the council in to £1.5 Billion of debt. There should be public enquiries in to all those councils who are in similar situations.


    Turkeys don't vote for Christmas ;)

    There are times when I have sympathy with Councils in debt. They took sensible, calculated risks, within their general remit, in a genuine attempt to benefit the Taxpayers.

    None of this applies here. Lent a massive amount of money, to a non-resident, for purposes nothing to do with Thurrock, with no security whatsoever. The amount of money dwarfs the Budget. For running absolutely every essential service.

    It is a bit like if you and your Partner have a £250,000 house. With a £240,000 Mortgage. And you decided to use that as "security" to lend some random bloke £2 million. And you refuse to discuss it with your Partner or your Kids. Saying it is nothing to do with them.

    We all make mistakes. But this was criminal activity with Thurrock taxpayers money, followed by a Criminal cover-up.

    And Central Government needs to act to stop this farce. And govern. How quickly would fingers be pointed if this was the act of a Labour Council?
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