Playing 42.5bb we are just folding this spot even if we think they may be getting out of line. Calling is almost certainly the worst option 4b would be second as it looks stronger than jamming.
If we jam we are essentially hoping to be called by AK everything else is crushed.
4b jamming point is going to be around the 20bb mark but even less if we have not seen to many 3bs from either of them.
What size are you going with 4bet if you’re not jamming? For example with AK, JJ, QQ, KK, AA?
Def very small like 2.1x maybe like 65k in this example if we are going to 4b AA kk etc we need to have some 4b folds also to make sure we are balanced... However I am just folding this spot pre
It has to be small there can be no other size - you want it big enough to get it in on flops with value but small enough so you are not crippled if you 4b fold
Playing 42.5bb we are just folding this spot even if we think they may be getting out of line. Calling is almost certainly the worst option 4b would be second as it looks stronger than jamming.
If we jam we are essentially hoping to be called by AK everything else is crushed.
4b jamming point is going to be around the 20bb mark but even less if we have not seen to many 3bs from either of them.
What size are you going with 4bet if you’re not jamming? For example with AK, JJ, QQ, KK, AA?
Def very small like 2.1x maybe like 65k in this example if we are going to 4b AA kk etc we need to have some 4b folds also to make sure we are balanced... However I am just folding this spot pre
Don’t think I’m ever using any cold 4bet size other than jam in this spot. I think it just turns our hand face up to exactly what it is (AA/KK). Not necessarily saying there isn’t situations where maybe it has merit but I just wouldn’t personally.
If we use a click 4bet size like 2.1-2.3x we are just pricing in the 3bettor with ATC (given the dead money from original opener, antes and blinds). Then if we go any bigger with 4bet, we are priced in to call off versus jam.
Say we have 50bb then sure we can use some non-all in 4bet size that is big enough to generate folds pre and small enough that we’re not priced in versus jam.
Hence the line we also need to have some 4b folds to be balanced… if we think the opponents are opening to often of course you can 4b fold a hand like A5s as you block AA have good equity vs hands that might flat ie 10 10 JJ etc
Why would we just jam 40+bb and fold out everything we beat with value or get crushed by everything that calls out jams?
You click back 4b it looks strong if you have a 4b fold hand you still have 30bb and we continue on.
Regards A10c being valued in… perfect please flat. We are either going to outflop you or outplay you often on the flop
well i went too me first live poker tornie in newcastle i hd exact same hand 88 only 14 players left cash was top 8 dealer raised i jammed and lost too kj so theres ur answer u either win or lose lol
@peter27 Hey, like you I thought you would get a bigger response….what did you end up doing? The suspense is KILLING ME!
Apologies for the delayed response, life things got in the way.
To answer some of your questions & points:
- I misspoke. The tournament had 30 minute levels, rather than 15. - Based on 3-bet frequency, it felt like John would 3-bet with much worse than AJ. - We were not close to the cash, not even at middle stages really.
It seems the feedback is overwhelmingly in favour of folding here. Looking back on it with a clear head, I tend to agree. What I actually did was different.
I thought to myself that I wasn't worried about John at all. Given how wide he had been 3-betting, it was likely I had him crushed. Player one was a concern, and I figured if he's facing a 3-bet shove for so many BB's, he's basically folding most of his range. I effectively tried to steal the pot (I can now see that the risk/reward ratio isn't very good in this spot).
I jammed my 88, player one called with TT (I expected him to fold this hand actually) and John folded.
Comments
If we use a click 4bet size like 2.1-2.3x we are just pricing in the 3bettor with ATC (given the dead money from original opener, antes and blinds). Then if we go any bigger with 4bet, we are priced in to call off versus jam.
Say we have 50bb then sure we can use some non-all in 4bet size that is big enough to generate folds pre and small enough that we’re not priced in versus jam.
Why would we just jam 40+bb and fold out everything we beat with value or get crushed by everything that calls out jams?
You click back 4b it looks strong if you have a 4b fold hand you still have 30bb and we continue on.
Regards A10c being valued in… perfect please flat. We are either going to outflop you or outplay you often on the flop
@peter27
To answer some of your questions & points:
- I misspoke. The tournament had 30 minute levels, rather than 15.
- Based on 3-bet frequency, it felt like John would 3-bet with much worse than AJ.
- We were not close to the cash, not even at middle stages really.
It seems the feedback is overwhelmingly in favour of folding here. Looking back on it with a clear head, I tend to agree. What I actually did was different.
I thought to myself that I wasn't worried about John at all. Given how wide he had been 3-betting, it was likely I had him crushed. Player one was a concern, and I figured if he's facing a 3-bet shove for so many BB's, he's basically folding most of his range. I effectively tried to steal the pot (I can now see that the risk/reward ratio isn't very good in this spot).
I jammed my 88, player one called with TT (I expected him to fold this hand actually) and John folded.
TT held.