Anti-vaxxers mock Matthew Perry following his death

HAYSIE

Florida 'church of healing' leader, 65, and his three sons are sentenced to up to 12 years in prison for selling bleach as a 'miracle cure' for COVID, HIV and autism
A Florida man and his three adult sons have been sentenced for selling a toxic industrial bleach as a fake COVID-19 cure through their online church
Dad Mark Grenon, 66, and son Joseph, 36, each received five years while Jonathan, 37, and Jordan, 29, were sentenced to up to 12 years behind bars
The Grenons pitched their so-called Miracle Mineral Solution as a cure for 95% of known diseases, including COVID-19, Alzheimer’s, autism, AIDS and MS








A Florida man and his three adult sons have been sentenced for selling a toxic industrial bleach as a fake COVID-19 cure through their online church. Jonathan Grenon, 37, and Jordan Grenon, 29, were given to 12 years in jail while dad Mark Grenon, 66, and son Joseph Grenon, 36, each received five years. The Grenons pitched their so-called Miracle Mineral Solution as a cure for 95% of known diseases, including COVID-19, Alzheimer's, autism, AIDS and multiple sclerosis. Prosecutors said the Bradenton family's Genesis II Church of Health and Healing sold $1 million worth of their MMS.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12609221/Florida-church-healing-leader-65-three-sons-sentenced-12-years-prison-selling-bleach-miracle-cure-COVID-HIV-autism.html

PaintedOne

your joking haysie? you mean the government have punished someone for pushing fake drugs and cures , no way our government do not punish
and yes i know its the states but same

PaintedOne

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

HAYSIE

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

The Grenons pitched their so-called Miracle Mineral Solution as a cure for 95% of known diseases, including COVID-19, Alzheimer’s, autism, AIDS and MS

Essexphil

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

This sort of stuff may be true in 1 sense. But is extremely misleading.

Covid/coronavirus is not a single disease. It is a variety of linked contagious diseases. Much like flu, or the "common" cold in that sense. So science will, in all likelihood, be playing catch up with a constantly changing/evolving disease.

The next point to make is that there is no medicine that does not have significant potential side effects. That is not to say that drugs should be accepted without question-most Class A drugs, such as Heroin and Speed started out as medicines. But it is always a question of balancing risk and reward.

I think it is entirely possible that the vaccines may have contributed to 10, maybe even 20, deaths in the UK. And may have saved 50,000, or even 100,000 lives in the UK. Before you add in the longlasting effects of Long Covid. Rather better than the contraceptive pill, paracetamol, and a whole host of medicines where we never read the risk leaflet.

I've nothing against conspiracy theories. But so many conspiracy theorists either spout total nonsense, or (as here) seek to profit from the gullible.

Here are 2 quick questions which occur to my mind. And yet never the conspiracy theorists.

1. Why is there no comparative data between the risk/reward/cost of the more traditional Viral Vector vaccines (such as Astra Zeneca) and the more ground-breaking MRNA vaccines?

2. Instead of trying to deny Climate Change is a thing (it clearly is) why does nobody ever point out the lack of/changing facts in relation to it? So-for example-where is the science that proves dumping stuff locally is worse for the planet than shifting stuff halfway round the World and dumping it in India? Anybody remember when the most important thing in relation to climate change was CFCs and the hole in the ozone layer? When did that cease to be a thing? I'm sure at some level it is important. But not the be all and end all. Any more than seas rising is.

HAYSIE

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

The Facts

Back in April 2020, Trump spoke at a press conference during which he floated possible ways of treating COVID. He suggested ultraviolet or "just very powerful light" as one. After that, he went on to raise "disinfectant" as a potential solution.

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that?" Trump said.

"By injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it'd be interesting to check that, so that you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me."

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-donald-trump-suggest-people-inject-poison-cure-covid-1619105

Tikay10

HAYSIE said:

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

The Facts

Back in April 2020, Trump spoke at a press conference during which he floated possible ways of treating COVID. He suggested ultraviolet or "just very powerful light" as one. After that, he went on to raise "disinfectant" as a potential solution.

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that?" Trump said.

"By injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it'd be interesting to check that, so that you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me."

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-donald-trump-suggest-people-inject-poison-cure-covid-1619105

rofl.

He has completely lost his mind.

Last week he had a new one, he claimed "windmills are killing our whales". (By "windmills" he means Wind Turbines).

Tikay10

Essexphil said:

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

This sort of stuff may be true in 1 sense. But is extremely misleading.

Covid/coronavirus is not a single disease. It is a variety of linked contagious diseases. Much like flu, or the "common" cold in that sense. So science will, in all likelihood, be playing catch up with a constantly changing/evolving disease.

The next point to make is that there is no medicine that does not have significant potential side effects. That is not to say that drugs should be accepted without question-most Class A drugs, such as Heroin and Speed started out as medicines. But it is always a question of balancing risk and reward.

I think it is entirely possible that the vaccines may have contributed to 10, maybe even 20, deaths in the UK. And may have saved 50,000, or even 100,000 lives in the UK. Before you add in the longlasting effects of Long Covid. Rather better than the contraceptive pill, paracetamol, and a whole host of medicines where we never read the risk leaflet.

I've nothing against conspiracy theories. But so many conspiracy theorists either spout total nonsense, or (as here) seek to profit from the gullible.

Here are 2 quick questions which occur to my mind. And yet never the conspiracy theorists.

1. Why is there no comparative data between the risk/reward/cost of the more traditional Viral Vector vaccines (such as Astra Zeneca) and the more ground-breaking MRNA vaccines?

2. Instead of trying to deny Climate Change is a thing (it clearly is) why does nobody ever point out the lack of/changing facts in relation to it? So-for example-where is the science that proves dumping stuff locally is worse for the planet than shifting stuff halfway round the World and dumping it in India? Anybody remember when the most important thing in relation to climate change was CFCs and the hole in the ozone layer? When did that cease to be a thing? I'm sure at some level it is important. But not the be all and end all. Any more than seas rising is.

BOOM:


I think it is entirely possible that the vaccines may have contributed to 10, maybe even 20, deaths in the UK. And may have saved 50,000, or even 100,000 lives in the UK.

Essexphil

For balance, I think it is wrong to dismiss all conspiracy theories and all conspiracy theorists.

Various important changes have come about precisely because there were people who refused to accept what was once believed to be fact.

Yes, 99% is nonsense. But we must not close our minds to the fact that it is not 100%.

Tikay10

Essexphil said:

For balance, I think it is wrong to dismiss all conspiracy theories and all conspiracy theorists.

Various important changes have come about precisely because there were people who refused to accept what was once believed to be fact.

Yes, 99% is nonsense. But we must not close our minds to the fact that it is not 100%.

Well yes, but surely the normal process is to "sense check" what we read.

If Trump says "drink bleach", or a conspiracy theorist comes up with "they get vaccinated & loads of them immediately die of heart failure" merely sense-checking it tells us the answer.

Everything we hear or read in life we instinctively sense check. If we see, say, "3 x 3 = 9" sense-checking snap tells us that's correct, but if we see 5 x 7 = 117" sense-checking instantly tells us it can't be right. Same with "all Online Gaming businesses are corrupt". Simply sense-checking tells is it cannot possibly be true. There WILL be the odd rogue site, but it's highly improbable in regulated markets, but may well be true in "grey markets".

EVERYTHING we hear & read we sense-check. There's no better way.

Enut

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

Tikay10

Enut said:

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

@Enut

I often wonder what the COVID death toll would have been if it were not for the global rollout of the various vaccines.

Nobody can say exactly how many died from COVID or COVID-related problems globally but the generally accepted number is around 6 million, depending how you measure it.

What might that number have been without vaccines?

tomgoodun

Tikay10 said:

Enut said:

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

@Enut

I often wonder what the COVID death toll would have been if it were not for the global rollout of the various vaccines.

Nobody can say exactly how many died from COVID or COVID-related problems globally but the generally accepted number is around 6 million, depending how you measure it.

What might that number have been without vaccines?

Spanish ‘flu killed 50 million people

Tikay10

tomgoodun said:

Tikay10 said:

Enut said:

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

@Enut @tomgoodun

I often wonder what the COVID death toll would have been if it were not for the global rollout of the various vaccines.

Nobody can say exactly how many died from COVID or COVID-related problems globally but the generally accepted number is around 6 million, depending how you measure it.

What might that number have been without vaccines?

Spanish ‘flu killed 50 million people

@Enut @tomgoodun

At the time, the global population was ~1.8 billion. Today it's around 4.5 times bigger at ~8 billion.

Mind boggling how many COVID may have killed if there were no vaccines. There are side-effects of course, & globally vaccines probably killed low thousands in the process of saving the loves of x million. Tragic for those who perished, but a great risk-reward ratio.

I have read the argument that the vaccine was designed by "the new world order" or "deep state" to kill/control the population but that fails the sense-check test. If they wanted to reduce/control world population, all they had to do was refuse to licence vaccines, then COVID would have done the job for them.

Enut

Tikay10 said:

tomgoodun said:

Tikay10 said:

Enut said:

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

@Enut

I often wonder what the COVID death toll would have been if it were not for the global rollout of the various vaccines.

Nobody can say exactly how many died from COVID or COVID-related problems globally but the generally accepted number is around 6 million, depending how you measure it.

What might that number have been without vaccines?

Spanish ‘flu killed 50 million people

@Enut @tomgoodun
At the time, the global population was ~1.8 billion. Today it's around 4.5 times bigger at ~8 billion.

Mind boggling how many COVID may have killed if there were no vaccines. There are side-effects of course, & globally vaccines probably killed low thousands in the process of saving the loves of x million. Tragic for those who perished, but a great risk-reward ratio.

I have read the argument that the vaccine was designed by "the new world order" or "deep state" to kill/control the population but that fails the sense-check test. If they wanted to reduce/control world population, all they had to do was refuse to licence vaccines, then COVID would have done the job for them.

Ah but Bill Gates was behind the development of COVID so that he could then make money out of the vaccines (because he doesn't have enough money, right?)

That and the chips in the vaccines etc etc etc.

Tikay10

Enut said:

Tikay10 said:

tomgoodun said:

Tikay10 said:

Enut said:

I decided to have the vaccine after two of my clients died of COVID, one client lost his wife 50 years and his only daughter a week later, both to COVID, that phone call was a tough one to take.

Another client owned a nursing home, she had retired but went in to help out when COVID hit the nursing home, 'don't worry dear I've got all the protective gear on', she was dead a few days later.

There was no way I was going to see my clients without being as protected as I could be, I would have found it very tough if I had passed it on to anyone, especially clients.

I also did not have the time or medical expertise to make my own assessment as to the medical effectiveness of the various vaccines despite the fact that I have a degree in Biology, I decided to trust the experts.

My own thought at the time was that COVID would end up being like flu and each year we would go into COVID and flu season, I probably wasn't far wrong as things turned out, but I think things could have turned out much, much worse.

@Enut

I often wonder what the COVID death toll would have been if it were not for the global rollout of the various vaccines.

Nobody can say exactly how many died from COVID or COVID-related problems globally but the generally accepted number is around 6 million, depending how you measure it.

What might that number have been without vaccines?

Spanish ‘flu killed 50 million people

@Enut @tomgoodun
At the time, the global population was ~1.8 billion. Today it's around 4.5 times bigger at ~8 billion.

Mind boggling how many COVID may have killed if there were no vaccines. There are side-effects of course, & globally vaccines probably killed low thousands in the process of saving the loves of x million. Tragic for those who perished, but a great risk-reward ratio.

I have read the argument that the vaccine was designed by "the new world order" or "deep state" to kill/control the population but that fails the sense-check test. If they wanted to reduce/control world population, all they had to do was refuse to licence vaccines, then COVID would have done the job for them.

Ah but Bill Gates was behind the development of COVID so that he could then make money out of the vaccines (because he doesn't have enough money, right?)

That and the chips in the vaccines etc etc etc.

Ha. The conspiracy theorists accuse him - the world's greatest philanthropist ever - of every sin under the sun, if something is evil, or appears to be, they blame him. Every time.

They all have the same little list of villains;


Bill Gates

World Health Organization.

Troudeau

Macron

Hilary Clinton

Dr Fauci

Sir Patrick Vallance

Professor Chris Whitty

Obama

Blackrock

Soros.

And they trot one or more of those out every time. You'd think they'd at least include Trump for a bit of balance.

PS - No previous USA President has ever been indicted. Trump currently faces 4 indictments & 91 felony counts.

tomgoodun

Trump? The multi-millionaire (allegedly) “man of the people”, never..,,

Enut

And lets not forget the theory that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is all staged and the press coverage you see is all staged by actors.

It's all being done to control us and we're falling for it!

Essexphil

I often find myself on the side of the underdog. So-let's give 1 example from the pandemic.

Anti-vaxxers. There is clear proof that they were personally running a considerable additional risk to themselves.

But to others? There is a total lack of empirical data showing that refusing to have the vaccine meant other people were more at risk as a result.

The vaccinated still got Covid. Just as much. They still passed it on. Just as much. They were just less likely to get seriously ill themselves.

I could see the argument for compulsory vaccinations in certain hospital wards and care homes. But making social pariahs out of people's genuine beliefs? Not for me.

PaintedOne

Essexphil said:

PaintedOne said:

all three are a result of vaccine damage , and none have ever been found in a lab and isolated/purified as of yet , fact , and its a very painful one

This sort of stuff may be true in 1 sense. But is extremely misleading.

Covid/coronavirus is not a single disease. It is a variety of linked contagious diseases. Much like flu, or the "common" cold in that sense. So science will, in all likelihood, be playing catch up with a constantly changing/evolving disease.

The next point to make is that there is no medicine that does not have significant potential side effects. That is not to say that drugs should be accepted without question-most Class A drugs, such as Heroin and Speed started out as medicines. But it is always a question of balancing risk and reward.

I think it is entirely possible that the vaccines may have contributed to 10, maybe even 20, deaths in the UK. And may have saved 50,000, or even 100,000 lives in the UK. Before you add in the longlasting effects of Long Covid. Rather better than the contraceptive pill, paracetamol, and a whole host of medicines where we never read the risk leaflet.

I've nothing against conspiracy theories. But so many conspiracy theorists either spout total nonsense, or (as here) seek to profit from the gullible.

Here are 2 quick questions which occur to my mind. And yet never the conspiracy theorists.

1. Why is there no comparative data between the risk/reward/cost of the more traditional Viral Vector vaccines (such as Astra Zeneca) and the more ground-breaking MRNA vaccines?

2. Instead of trying to deny Climate Change is a thing (it clearly is) why does nobody ever point out the lack of/changing facts in relation to it? So-for example-where is the science that proves dumping stuff locally is worse for the planet than shifting stuff halfway round the World and dumping it in India? Anybody remember when the most important thing in relation to climate change was CFCs and the hole in the ozone layer? When did that cease to be a thing? I'm sure at some level it is important. But not the be all and end all. Any more than seas rising is.</block

love your well balanced approach Phil and appreciate it to , what was striking to me when you talk of risk benefit e.t.c is that the convid vaccine according to mhra and vears and the eu one which escapes me was that there has never been so many reports , for example all vaccines in the past never accumulated so much bad data as these latest vaccines put together .
also don't quote me on this , you may remember it yourself , but was it swine flu or alike in the 70s where they rolled out a vaccine and 25 people died so they questioned it and stopped it , unfortunately 42 people went on to pass from it but atleast they looked at the data and prevented more. why hasn't this happened this time, surely its not a case of well they are all conspiracy theorists , that many numbers ?
also when they have in the past put out bad information pfizer in particular but also az have been fined in the billions , over 500 billion in fines for pfizer for misleading the public, so when these companies get indemnity i does seem very weird to say the least

Tikay10

Essexphil said:

I often find myself on the side of the underdog. So-let's give 1 example from the pandemic.

Anti-vaxxers. There is clear proof that they were personally running a considerable additional risk to themselves.

But to others? There is a total lack of empirical data showing that refusing to have the vaccine meant other people were more at risk as a result.

The vaccinated still got Covid. Just as much. They still passed it on. Just as much. They were just less likely to get seriously ill themselves.

I could see the argument for compulsory vaccinations in certain hospital wards and care homes. But making social pariahs out of people's genuine beliefs? Not for me.

@Essexphil


If they deliberately make false accusations about people like, say, Bill Gates, who has devoted his later life (& his entire personal wealth) to be a genuine force for good (especially, say, in Africa) then they deserve to be made social pariahs.

It's WRONG & it's DISHONEST to make these allegations without credible evidence.