Doctors Strike.

HAYSIE

RogueCell

The juniors are brave and I wish them well. I'm currently watching Boris Johnson giving evidence to the Covid Enquiry. The people he's thanking for their hard work have seen a real terms pay cut of 35% since 2008 and they're still stuck with massive student debt.

HMG have had almost a year to come to the table and end the strikes. Who is to blame for the strikes continuing?

RogueCell

The fact of the matter is that in terms of impact on patients, the strikes are a drop in the ocean compared to the numbers who are giving up on the NHS entirely. For some time now, we are losing far more doctors than we're training, and this despite considerable expansion of places in medical schools.

bev60

Most interesting front page you've posted.

legascaac

Government could take a pay cut to pay them .They do FA BAR WASTE MONEY ON ENQUIRIES . Then complain about them (JUNIOR DOCTORS ) but they claim plenty for bills for second homes etc .Very WASTEFUL but make out it's junior doctors putting people at risk , no that's firmly this TORY government that's putting people at risk ( As they did with Covid ) FFS . PAY THEM . They deserve it . If you pay them properly no strikes . People get seen .Your fault TORY GOVERNMENT.. YOU LOT DON'T DESERVE A PENNY PAY FOR YOUR SECOND HOMES YOU WANTED THE JOB . YOU GET PLENTY PAY .. JUST WASTE MONEY THAT COULD BE USED BETTER .. I do not see government no getting a pay rise from 2008 . scum TORIES .. COUNTRY IS A MESS BECAUSE OFF YOU .. A can take over right away .. it would .. Be hard to do a worse job .

Tikay10

Question for those who actually work in the NHS;

Are the pay & working conditions better if working for Private Healthcare companies such as BUPA?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm with the vast majority here, pay the frontline NHS staff properly, but I am curious as to how terms & conditions vary between NHS & Private Healthcare businesses.

bev60

Most of the 3 billion will filter through the bureaucratic process and function as a resource grab (stocks go up and portfolios increase). Its agents of capital serving the interests of capital.

legascaac

Private is/was one to one care from past experience off a family member and pay conditions are better I had the cheek to ask . That's 10 years ago , don't know if it's still the same .

RogueCell

Tikay10 said:

Question for those who actually work in the NHS;

Are the pay & working conditions better if working for Private Healthcare companies such as BUPA?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm with the vast majority here, pay the frontline NHS staff properly, but I am curious as to how terms & conditions vary between NHS & Private Healthcare businesses.

Hi Tikay

This is the other part of the problem: the NHS is a hideous employer. The working conditions are awful and continue to deteriorate year on year.

The private sector does not directly employ most of the medics who work in it. Rather, consultants pay a fee for use of the hospital's infrastructure and overheads. So they're effectively self-employed contractors. So yes it's better because they are in control.

Many specialties (such as mine) have relatively little private work, largely because our work depends on having an ITU/24 hour labs/registrars on call.

Junior doctors cannot work in the private sector except in very dead end jobs (such as constant night duty to prescribe paracetamol etc to post-operative patients). These jobs have no prospect of progression and no training element and that means the docs in these jobs are stuck at the bottom of the payscale forever.

So that's the real kicker: the juniors are effectively trapped and cannot vote with their feet. The government of course knows this which is why it treats them like ****. This is why having gone down the strike route, they're absolutely dug in for the long haul - if they don't, there'll be some other insult next year.

RogueCell

Clicked send too soon:

What junior doctors can do and are doing in huge numbers is emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand, who welcome them with open arms and better pay and fewer hours. And humanity: nobody rosters you onto night shifts on the day you're getting married...when you told them your wedding day nine months prior.

Tikay10

@RogueCell

That's fascinating, I knew very little of that.

Thanks.

legascaac

Private health care if you have it once diagnosed , appointment for op in a week or less .my family member was in ,in 6 days for her operation . It's so different . pay must improve for junior doctors or they'll all keep leaving . they could get more working in a call centre than the £14 an hour they get working for NHS ..sigh government get these hard working peoples pay sorted , they should be getting £20 an hour at least .. IMO .

HAYSIE

HAYSIE

HAYSIE

HAYSIE

HAYSIE

RogueCell

There was a worldwide uptick in excess deaths in 2023 (in Westernised healthcare systems at least), so blaming strikes for this is highly disingenuous. The reasons are complex but certainly include:
- pandemic hangover of late cancer diagnosis meaning less chance of cure
- cost of living crisis: the return of scurvy, malnutrition and people living in unheated homes
- failure/absence of adequate social care, meaning late recognition of illness in vulnerable people in their own homes

Essexphil

RogueCell said:

There was a worldwide uptick in excess deaths in 2023 (in Westernised healthcare systems at least), so blaming strikes for this is highly disingenuous. The reasons are complex but certainly include:
- pandemic hangover of late cancer diagnosis meaning less chance of cure
- cost of living crisis: the return of scurvy, malnutrition and people living in unheated homes
- failure/absence of adequate social care, meaning late recognition of illness in vulnerable people in their own homes

The reasons are most certainly complex. All the things you mention are going to be factors, and there are undoubtedly others, not least the massively spiralling costs of running the NHS (or indeed any other Health Service), much of which is outside the control of management or staff.

But 1 of the factors is going to be Doctors going on strike. Where services are cancelled. Delays that lead to less favourable prognoses. Fewer Staff and less relevantly/currently qualified Staff.

To try and blame strikes for all of this is plainly wrong. But, equally, saying strikes are irrelevant is equally disingenuous.

Doctors had tough choices to make. No easy answers. Can fully appreciate that sometimes, in order to get more money, have to strike and that will cause some people to die. But there is no sugar coating that.

No-one in their right mind would defend this Govt's treatment of pay demands for public sector workers generally, or NHS employees in particular.

But the BMA have been little better. Be realistic-demanding a 35% pay rise is both unaffordable and faintly ridiculous. The NHS has thousands of marvellous Doctors who deserve better. From their Union, as well as others.

This Govt has no money. And, equally, the problems for retaining Doctors is clearly worst at the most Junior level. How difficult would it be for the BMA to ask for a set amount to be knocked off student loans for every year a Doctor continued to work for the NHS? Something that would actually be achievable. And would enable acceptance of percentage rises agreed elsewhere in the NHS.

RogueCell

Essexphil said:

RogueCell said:

There was a worldwide uptick in excess deaths in 2023 (in Westernised healthcare systems at least), so blaming strikes for this is highly disingenuous. The reasons are complex but certainly include:
- pandemic hangover of late cancer diagnosis meaning less chance of cure
- cost of living crisis: the return of scurvy, malnutrition and people living in unheated homes
- failure/absence of adequate social care, meaning late recognition of illness in vulnerable people in their own homes

The reasons are most certainly complex. All the things you mention are going to be factors, and there are undoubtedly others, not least the massively spiralling costs of running the NHS (or indeed any other Health Service), much of which is outside the control of management or staff.

But 1 of the factors is going to be Doctors going on strike. Where services are cancelled. Delays that lead to less favourable prognoses. Fewer Staff and less relevantly/currently qualified Staff.

To try and blame strikes for all of this is plainly wrong. But, equally, saying strikes are irrelevant is equally disingenuous.

Doctors had tough choices to make. No easy answers. Can fully appreciate that sometimes, in order to get more money, have to strike and that will cause some people to die. But there is no sugar coating that.

No-one in their right mind would defend this Govt's treatment of pay demands for public sector workers generally, or NHS employees in particular.

But the BMA have been little better. Be realistic-demanding a 35% pay rise is both unaffordable and faintly ridiculous. The NHS has thousands of marvellous Doctors who deserve better. From their Union, as well as others.

This Govt has no money. And, equally, the problems for retaining Doctors is clearly worst at the most Junior level. How difficult would it be for the BMA to ask for a set amount to be knocked off student loans for every year a Doctor continued to work for the NHS? Something that would actually be achievable. And would enable acceptance of percentage rises agreed elsewhere in the NHS.

I didn't mean to suggest strikes aren't a factor, just that the headline presented above is quite clear in blaming doctors for excess deaths.

I don't agree that the government has no money - it's just that all the money is diverted to Tory mates - just ask Michelle Mone and Dido Harding (who spent £26billion on the utterly useless Test & Trace programme).

The NHS is especially short-sighted when it comes to using money wisely: Trusts will only pay their own junior doctors a non-negotiable £30-40/hour to work extra night and weekend shifts, however they have no problem at all paying an agency £300/hour for a locum doctor of the same grade to do it. Result: junior doctors boycott extra shifts.

Waiting lists: I and many other colleagues would have been willing to give up Saturday mornings to do extra lists to clear backlogs, except that the rate for these is fixed and hasn't been uplifted in over a decade, so it just doesn't pay enough to give up valuable rest/family time (bearing in mind that most of us work way in excess of full time hours to begin with).

I do agree with you Phil that there were creative solutions to be had here:student debt being one obvious target but cost of professional exams being another. I spent £15k (after tax) on computer marked multiple choice exams, not to mention travel expenses and cost of revision courses (because the pass rates are around 20%) - would be easy to incorporate these as part of salary package on which the NHS could no doubt get VAT relief where individuals cannot.

I too have problems with the BMA, but the DoH civil service has been glorious in its ineptitude.

Essexphil

RogueCell said:

Essexphil said:

RogueCell said:

There was a worldwide uptick in excess deaths in 2023 (in Westernised healthcare systems at least), so blaming strikes for this is highly disingenuous. The reasons are complex but certainly include:
- pandemic hangover of late cancer diagnosis meaning less chance of cure
- cost of living crisis: the return of scurvy, malnutrition and people living in unheated homes
- failure/absence of adequate social care, meaning late recognition of illness in vulnerable people in their own homes

The reasons are most certainly complex. All the things you mention are going to be factors, and there are undoubtedly others, not least the massively spiralling costs of running the NHS (or indeed any other Health Service), much of which is outside the control of management or staff.

But 1 of the factors is going to be Doctors going on strike. Where services are cancelled. Delays that lead to less favourable prognoses. Fewer Staff and less relevantly/currently qualified Staff.

To try and blame strikes for all of this is plainly wrong. But, equally, saying strikes are irrelevant is equally disingenuous.

Doctors had tough choices to make. No easy answers. Can fully appreciate that sometimes, in order to get more money, have to strike and that will cause some people to die. But there is no sugar coating that.

No-one in their right mind would defend this Govt's treatment of pay demands for public sector workers generally, or NHS employees in particular.

But the BMA have been little better. Be realistic-demanding a 35% pay rise is both unaffordable and faintly ridiculous. The NHS has thousands of marvellous Doctors who deserve better. From their Union, as well as others.

This Govt has no money. And, equally, the problems for retaining Doctors is clearly worst at the most Junior level. How difficult would it be for the BMA to ask for a set amount to be knocked off student loans for every year a Doctor continued to work for the NHS? Something that would actually be achievable. And would enable acceptance of percentage rises agreed elsewhere in the NHS.

I didn't mean to suggest strikes aren't a factor, just that the headline presented above is quite clear in blaming doctors for excess deaths.

I don't agree that the government has no money - it's just that all the money is diverted to Tory mates - just ask Michelle Mone and Dido Harding (who spent £26billion on the utterly useless Test & Trace programme).

The NHS is especially short-sighted when it comes to using money wisely: Trusts will only pay their own junior doctors a non-negotiable £30-40/hour to work extra night and weekend shifts, however they have no problem at all paying an agency £300/hour for a locum doctor of the same grade to do it. Result: junior doctors boycott extra shifts.

Waiting lists: I and many other colleagues would have been willing to give up Saturday mornings to do extra lists to clear backlogs, except that the rate for these is fixed and hasn't been uplifted in over a decade, so it just doesn't pay enough to give up valuable rest/family time (bearing in mind that most of us work way in excess of full time hours to begin with).

I do agree with you Phil that there were creative solutions to be had here:student debt being one obvious target but cost of professional exams being another. I spent £15k (after tax) on computer marked multiple choice exams, not to mention travel expenses and cost of revision courses (because the pass rates are around 20%) - would be easy to incorporate these as part of salary package on which the NHS could no doubt get VAT relief where individuals cannot.

I too have problems with the BMA, but the DoH civil service has been glorious in its ineptitude.

Agree with pretty much all of that. In addition, debt/exam costs and relief could be taken from Gross (rather than Net) Salary, so employees could win as well as the NHS.

I have never been employed by the BMA, but 15+ years ago I took part in some joint initiatives with them. I found them to be extremely proficient. I am sure that they still have many talented staff, but the current mouthpieces do not inspire the same level of confidence.

The BMA is both a Professional body and a Trade Union. Both essential roles. But (IMO) not roles that should be carried out by the same organisation.