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Bronson Battersby: The system that allowed a two-year-old to starve to death in plain sight

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
edited January 21 in The Rail

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Horror as 'gorgeous' toddler Bronson Battersby 'left to die of starvation' next to his dead father


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/horror-gorgeous-toddler-bronson-battersby-075421405.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Father of toddler who starved to death had begged social services for help, say neighbours


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/father-toddler-starved-death-had-142416950.html
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    Tragic story.

    However, it rather saddens me that the Mother and the Neighbours seem to want to blame Social Services.

    Anyone who has been involved with Social Services appreciates just how many kids there are in vulnerable positions, and just how underfunded they are.

    If everyone was aware of the problems, why did no-one (by which I mean the neighbours and particularly the Mother) do more? People always want to blame someone else...
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    Tragic story.

    However, it rather saddens me that the Mother and the Neighbours seem to want to blame Social Services.

    Anyone who has been involved with Social Services appreciates just how many kids there are in vulnerable positions, and just how underfunded they are.

    If everyone was aware of the problems, why did no-one (by which I mean the neighbours and particularly the Mother) do more? People always want to blame someone else...

    Maybe the rapid review wasnt rapid enough.
    Maybe the police should have acted more quickly.
    Obviously something needs to change.
    I expect a lessons have been learnt speech from someone, at some point.
    I agree that questions should be asked of the neighbours and particularly the Mother.

    Mr Battersby was said to have been “struggling to cope” with his young son in the months before his death. He was unemployed and had a heart condition that left him severely jaundiced.

    Bronson was classified as vulnerable by social services, meaning he received monthly visits. He had been living with his father for six months after his mother, Sarah Piesse, 43, moved into a new flat where there was a high staircase without a bannister that was unsafe for the two-year-old, neighbours said.


    Social services called to visit Bronson on Jan 2, a week before father and son were found dead, but received no reply. Staff contacted the police because they were unable to legally force entry.

    The same social worker visited the property two days later for an unannounced check but again there was no response, so she contacted the police once more.

    Council launches rapid review
    On January 9, social services were given access to the property by the landlady and the bodies of Bronson and Mr Battersby were discovered inside.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    edited January 18
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Tragic story.

    However, it rather saddens me that the Mother and the Neighbours seem to want to blame Social Services.

    Anyone who has been involved with Social Services appreciates just how many kids there are in vulnerable positions, and just how underfunded they are.

    If everyone was aware of the problems, why did no-one (by which I mean the neighbours and particularly the Mother) do more? People always want to blame someone else...

    Maybe the rapid review wasnt rapid enough.
    Maybe the police should have acted more quickly.
    Obviously something needs to change.
    I expect a lessons have been learnt speech from someone, at some point.
    I agree that questions should be asked of the neighbours and particularly the Mother.

    Mr Battersby was said to have been “struggling to cope” with his young son in the months before his death. He was unemployed and had a heart condition that left him severely jaundiced.

    Bronson was classified as vulnerable by social services, meaning he received monthly visits. He had been living with his father for six months after his mother, Sarah Piesse, 43, moved into a new flat where there was a high staircase without a bannister that was unsafe for the two-year-old, neighbours said.


    Social services called to visit Bronson on Jan 2, a week before father and son were found dead, but received no reply. Staff contacted the police because they were unable to legally force entry.

    The same social worker visited the property two days later for an unannounced check but again there was no response, so she contacted the police once more.

    Council launches rapid review
    On January 9, social services were given access to the property by the landlady and the bodies of Bronson and Mr Battersby were discovered inside.
    There are nearly 60,000 children un the UK currently on Child Protection Plans and/or the Child Protection Register.

    https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/child-protection-plan-register-statistics

    People have unrealistic expectations both as to what Social Services are able to do, and the Budgets they have to work to.

    Here's 2 "lessons to be learned":-

    1. We have a simple choice in relation to the Budgets given to Social Services. They either go up massively (and we probably need a total rethink as to how we value the Staff within it) or kids are going to die. No amount of finger-pointing is going to change that

    2. People have no concept as to the difficult choices Social Services have to make. Do you want to live in a Society akin to a Police State, where kids are routinely removed from their parents at the mere suggestion of risk? Do you want to live in a Society where Social Services are automatically deemed to know better than Parents what is better for their kids? Do you believe Parents should not be allowed to cost Authorities £millions as they try to keep hold of their kids?

    There are no easy answers. This isn't a "Baby P" scenario. Dad died. Child starved. Social Services tried to check on their welfare and failed in the attempt. No-one else seems to have made an attempt.

    These sorts of situations happen every single day. And, rarely, there are tragic outcomes.

    Meanwhile, everyone tries to blame other people. Society needs to take a long hard look at itself.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Tragic story.

    However, it rather saddens me that the Mother and the Neighbours seem to want to blame Social Services.

    Anyone who has been involved with Social Services appreciates just how many kids there are in vulnerable positions, and just how underfunded they are.

    If everyone was aware of the problems, why did no-one (by which I mean the neighbours and particularly the Mother) do more? People always want to blame someone else...

    Maybe the rapid review wasnt rapid enough.
    Maybe the police should have acted more quickly.
    Obviously something needs to change.
    I expect a lessons have been learnt speech from someone, at some point.
    I agree that questions should be asked of the neighbours and particularly the Mother.

    Mr Battersby was said to have been “struggling to cope” with his young son in the months before his death. He was unemployed and had a heart condition that left him severely jaundiced.

    Bronson was classified as vulnerable by social services, meaning he received monthly visits. He had been living with his father for six months after his mother, Sarah Piesse, 43, moved into a new flat where there was a high staircase without a bannister that was unsafe for the two-year-old, neighbours said.


    Social services called to visit Bronson on Jan 2, a week before father and son were found dead, but received no reply. Staff contacted the police because they were unable to legally force entry.

    The same social worker visited the property two days later for an unannounced check but again there was no response, so she contacted the police once more.

    Council launches rapid review
    On January 9, social services were given access to the property by the landlady and the bodies of Bronson and Mr Battersby were discovered inside.
    There are nearly 60,000 children un the UK currently on Child Protection Plans and/or the Child Protection Register.

    https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/child-protection-plan-register-statistics

    People have unrealistic expectations both as to what Social Services are able to do, and the Budgets they have to work to.

    Here's 2 "lessons to be learned":-

    1. We have a simple choice in relation to the Budgets given to Social Services. They either go up massively (and we probably need a total rethink as to how we value the Staff within it) or kids are going to die. No amount of finger-pointing is going to change that

    2. People have no concept as to the difficult choices Social Services have to make. Do you want to live in a Society akin to a Police State, where kids are routinely removed from their parents at the mere suggestion of risk? Do you want to live in a Society where Social Services are automatically deemed to know better than Parents what is better for their kids? Do you believe Parents should not be allowed to cost Authorities £millions as they try to keep hold of their kids?

    There are no easy answers. This isn't a "Baby P" scenario. Dad died. Child starved. Social Services tried to check on their welfare and failed in the attempt. No-one else seems to have made an attempt.

    These sorts of situations happen every single day. And, rarely, there are tragic outcomes.

    Meanwhile, everyone tries to blame other people. Society needs to take a long hard look at itself.
    I am not suggesting any of that,
    I think that Social Services were quite reasonable, and I wouldnt point the finger at them at all.
    As far as they were concerned the bloke wasnt there for his appointment.
    They contacted the police.
    They followed up with a surprise visit 2 days later, and contacted the police again.
    That gets them off the hook in my view.
    They are unable to gain access without a police presence.
    They have done their job.
    Not sure about the police.
    It would be interesting to know what the police actually said on both occasions that they were contacted.
    There has to be a next step, and it should be urgent.
    Maybe the police said they were too busy this week?
    They were contacted on two separate occasions, two days apart.
    How much notice do they need?

    The bloke was 60 years of age, and admitted to be struggling to look after his child.
    He also had medical problems.
    These were blatantly obvious, because he died from them.
    The child was vulnerable.
    The fact that the guy wasnt there for his appointment was probably a red flag.
    If this had been happening on a regular basis, I would assume that further steps would have already been taken.
    So this should have been another warning sign.

    Social Services have done their job, and seen the danger.
    If the next step is that police gain access to the property, then they should have done so immediately.
    If the police are too busy on a regular basis, then Social Services should have the wherewithal to gain entry themselves.
    It is pointless having Social Services, if they are unable to act when they see danger.

    The Mother is only 43, and probably more capable of looking after the child.
    I cant understand why she would accept an apartment that wasnt suitable for the child?
    Maybe Social Services could have helped with that 6 months ago.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    Agreed.

    I wasn't having a pop at you-it's the people who could have done something, and didn't, while pointing accusing fingers at others that give me the irrits.

    The police have neither the inclination or the funding to break down doors every time someone misses an appointment. That said, it's a shame that the Landlord wasn't involved earlier.

    There is more to the mother's apartment stuff-it is not standard for every mother's home to be checked for safety/suitability. But there is not the budget for Social Services to actively help people get suitable property
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    Agreed.

    I wasn't having a pop at you-it's the people who could have done something, and didn't, while pointing accusing fingers at others that give me the irrits.

    The police have neither the inclination or the funding to break down doors every time someone misses an appointment. That said, it's a shame that the Landlord wasn't involved earlier.

    There is more to the mother's apartment stuff-it is not standard for every mother's home to be checked for safety/suitability. But there is not the budget for Social Services to actively help people get suitable property

    Rightly or wrongly, I was assuming it was a Council flat, and she was unable to pick and choose.
    In which case Social Services may have been able to persuade the Council to offer something more suitable, 6 months ago.
    If it was a private rental or purchase, then there is no real excuse for not choosing something more suitable.
    Unless of course she didnt want custody of the child.
    Taking the Landlords details would be a wise thing for Social Services to do, as an alternative to kicking doors in.

    I think that it is pointless for Social Services to uncover dangerous situations, unless they have the ability to act on the information very quickly.

    In this case the first visit, and their first contact with the police, was a week before they were found dead.
    So the police had still not acted a week later, as they gained access via the Landlady.

    Had the police acted immediately, the child might be still alive.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 171,071
    edited January 19
    Bit more perspective in today's news. The boy's sister seems well-grounded & spoke very sensibly.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163


    This was a wonderful line by her too....


    She said her dad was "born to be wild" and "not an angel" but that he "really, really loved his children".

    Makes such a change to see someone who has just passed away described in any way than "a wonderful person, bla bla".

    The whole thing is such a tragedy. That child died slowly, without food or water for 3 days. It's unthinkable.

    No finger-pointing from me, but a reminder to us all to keep an eye out for our neighbours, especially the elderly ones.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Tikay10 said:

    Bit more perspective in today's news. The boy's sister seems well-grounded & spoke very sensibly.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163


    This was a wonderful line by her too....


    She said her dad was "born to be wild" and "not an angel" but that he "really, really loved his children".

    Makes such a change to see someone who has just passed away described in any way than "a wonderful person, bla bla".

    The whole thing is such a tragedy. That child died slowly, without food or water for 3 days. It's unthinkable.

    No finger-pointing from me, but a reminder to us all to keep an eye out for our neighbours, especially the elderly ones.

    I think that many people who act in good faith are caught out because we seem to put in place many systems that dont actually work in practice.
    Tragedies like this are usually followed by a representative of one authority or another, coming out to make the lessons have been learned speech.
    Although very often, nothing changes.
    The Social Worker that made the initial visit was obviously concerned enough to contact the police, with a view to forcing entry to the property.
    This seems to be the procedure.
    The same Social Worker was concerned enough to make an unannounced visit only 2 days later.
    They again contacted the police.
    When they eventually gained entry to the property a week after the initial visit, it was via the Landlady.
    What happened to the police?
    Did Social Services have the Landladys details when they made the initial visit?
    If so, why not contact her immediately after the police were unable to attend?
    If they didnt have the details, then one of the neighbours probably did.
    Or did they spend the week trying to make contact with the Landlady?

    The Father may well have been a terrific bloke that was doing his best, but he was 60, in ill health, and admitted he was struggling.

    If the police are too busy to attend on a regular basis, then an alternative should be put in place.

  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,846
    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:

    Bit more perspective in today's news. The boy's sister seems well-grounded & spoke very sensibly.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163


    This was a wonderful line by her too....


    She said her dad was "born to be wild" and "not an angel" but that he "really, really loved his children".

    Makes such a change to see someone who has just passed away described in any way than "a wonderful person, bla bla".

    The whole thing is such a tragedy. That child died slowly, without food or water for 3 days. It's unthinkable.

    No finger-pointing from me, but a reminder to us all to keep an eye out for our neighbours, especially the elderly ones.

    I think that many people who act in good faith are caught out because we seem to put in place many systems that dont actually work in practice.
    Tragedies like this are usually followed by a representative of one authority or another, coming out to make the lessons have been learned speech.
    Although very often, nothing changes.
    The Social Worker that made the initial visit was obviously concerned enough to contact the police, with a view to forcing entry to the property.
    This seems to be the procedure.
    The same Social Worker was concerned enough to make an unannounced visit only 2 days later.
    They again contacted the police.
    When they eventually gained entry to the property a week after the initial visit, it was via the Landlady.
    What happened to the police?
    Did Social Services have the Landladys details when they made the initial visit?
    If so, why not contact her immediately after the police were unable to attend?
    If they didnt have the details, then one of the neighbours probably did.
    Or did they spend the week trying to make contact with the Landlady?

    The Father may well have been a terrific bloke that was doing his best, but he was 60, in ill health, and admitted he was struggling.

    If the police are too busy to attend on a regular basis, then an alternative should be put in place.

    Easily said.

    We could do far more. Specialist services. Adequate mental health care.

    Trouble is, it all costs money. Many, many £Billions. When people have already made the decisions to divert lots of that money elsewhere. Things are going to get worse, not least because of the major financial problems facing local authorities.

    A lot of people wish that things were better. Right up to the point they see how many extra £thousands each and every taxpayer would have to pay. And politicians realise that there are absolutely no votes in it.

    Which is the fault of the Electorate. Not politicians.
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,564
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here but maybe a 58 year old man, obviously in ill health and not in a good relationship with the mother shouldn't be having more children.

    The mother 'who hadn't seen her 2 year old son since before Christmas' is more to blame than anyone else here, social services, the police, the neighbours, anyone. Who doesn't see their 2 year old at Christmas? But as she was quoted as saying 'if social services had done their job, Bronson would still be alive. But they didn't do anything'. Not true, they did far more than you did and you were the lad's mum.

    We live in a society where there is an entitled proportion of the population that think they can have everything they want without paying for it themselves, they get the rest of us to pay. 43% of the adult population of the UK don't pay any tax, that's 23 million and I would think that a larger proportion of those have dependent children than the 31 million taxpayers who are picking up the financial cost of everything.

    Maybe we shouldn't be encouraging/paying for people to have children they can't support.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Tikay10 said:

    Bit more perspective in today's news. The boy's sister seems well-grounded & spoke very sensibly.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163


    This was a wonderful line by her too....


    She said her dad was "born to be wild" and "not an angel" but that he "really, really loved his children".

    Makes such a change to see someone who has just passed away described in any way than "a wonderful person, bla bla".

    The whole thing is such a tragedy. That child died slowly, without food or water for 3 days. It's unthinkable.

    No finger-pointing from me, but a reminder to us all to keep an eye out for our neighbours, especially the elderly ones.

    I think that many people who act in good faith are caught out because we seem to put in place many systems that dont actually work in practice.
    Tragedies like this are usually followed by a representative of one authority or another, coming out to make the lessons have been learned speech.
    Although very often, nothing changes.
    The Social Worker that made the initial visit was obviously concerned enough to contact the police, with a view to forcing entry to the property.
    This seems to be the procedure.
    The same Social Worker was concerned enough to make an unannounced visit only 2 days later.
    They again contacted the police.
    When they eventually gained entry to the property a week after the initial visit, it was via the Landlady.
    What happened to the police?
    Did Social Services have the Landladys details when they made the initial visit?
    If so, why not contact her immediately after the police were unable to attend?
    If they didnt have the details, then one of the neighbours probably did.
    Or did they spend the week trying to make contact with the Landlady?

    The Father may well have been a terrific bloke that was doing his best, but he was 60, in ill health, and admitted he was struggling.

    If the police are too busy to attend on a regular basis, then an alternative should be put in place.

    Easily said.

    We could do far more. Specialist services. Adequate mental health care.

    Trouble is, it all costs money. Many, many £Billions. When people have already made the decisions to divert lots of that money elsewhere. Things are going to get worse, not least because of the major financial problems facing local authorities.

    A lot of people wish that things were better. Right up to the point they see how many extra £thousands each and every taxpayer would have to pay. And politicians realise that there are absolutely no votes in it.

    Which is the fault of the Electorate. Not politicians.
    You may well say that.
    We cant just pretend the system is working.
    Social Services spotted a dangerous situation.
    The next step was for the police to give them access to the property.
    This bit patently didnt work, as a week later the police had failed to respond.
    As access was gained via the Landlady, then maybe that should have been the next step, and perhaps the police shouldnt have been involved at all.
    If they couldnt respond in 7 days to an emergency, why involve them.
    This would have involved no extra costs, and may have saved a life.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Social services not to blame for death of toddler, say family


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/social-services-not-blame-death-094946488.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,452
    Tikay10 said:

    Bit more perspective in today's news. The boy's sister seems well-grounded & spoke very sensibly.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68027163


    This was a wonderful line by her too....


    She said her dad was "born to be wild" and "not an angel" but that he "really, really loved his children".

    Makes such a change to see someone who has just passed away described in any way than "a wonderful person, bla bla".

    The whole thing is such a tragedy. That child died slowly, without food or water for 3 days. It's unthinkable.

    No finger-pointing from me, but a reminder to us all to keep an eye out for our neighbours, especially the elderly ones.

    Bronson Battersby: The system that allowed a two-year-old to starve to death in plain sight


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/bronson-battersby-able-starve-death-070000539.html
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