New-Call, Raise, Shove, or Fold?-The Hand Revealed.

HAYSIE

Heres another interesting spot.
I will post the whole hand after the discussion.

Here goes.
It is the main on Tuesday, so a BH, 10,000 starting stack, 7 minute blinds.
The table is six handed.
You are the BB, with AQo.

Blinds 150/300.

Stacks after blinds are paid.
UTG 8331
UTG(+1) 16,178
UTG (+2) 17,190
Button. 11,908
SB. 7,627
BB (you). 18,175

Betting.
UTG limps so 300.
+1 folds
+2 raises to 900.
Button raises to 1500
SB folds.

You are the BB with AQo.
Call, raise, shove, or fold?

Tikay10

@HAYSIE


I'm gonna get dog's abuse for this, but I'm probably going to fold, albeit reluctantly.

There's been an open & a 3-bet and now we are going to have to play this pot out of position with A-Q. And if we call we may even see a 4 bet from one of the two. And I'm certainly not raising here. I don't like it & I'm quite sure that I can find a better spot later.

FOLD

HAYSIE

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

Essexphil

.

HAYSIE

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

HAYSIE

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

Do you think knowing the players helps?

HAYSIE

HAYSIE said:

@EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

Did you mean call, fold or shove?

Essexphil

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

Of course which players are in the hand matters. Although I do not think it is fair to comment on players not in the thread.

To take 2 simple examples. Because we all have different call/raise ranges, and different 3-bet and 4-bet ranges.

We know @Tikay10 is not wedded to AQ in that spot. Because he said so. Which means his calling and raising range is very narrow. Whereas you are considerably more "sticky". You are likely to call in that spot. (If you did not, then the hand would likely not merit discussion).

Some players flat monsters in early position. some people 3 and 4-bet with only 2 or 3 hands, whereas others raise far wider. All vital info before deciding whether to fold, call or raise/shove (both are possible at that stack depth, though both look equally poor to me)

HAYSIE

Essexphil said:

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

Of course which players are in the hand matters. Although I do not think it is fair to comment on players not in the thread.

To take 2 simple examples. Because we all have different call/raise ranges, and different 3-bet and 4-bet ranges.

We know @Tikay10 is not wedded to AQ in that spot. Because he said so. Which means his calling and raising range is very narrow. Whereas you are considerably more "sticky". You are likely to call in that spot. (If you did not, then the hand would likely not merit discussion).

Some players flat monsters in early position. some people 3 and 4-bet with only 2 or 3 hands, whereas others raise far wider. All vital info before deciding whether to fold, call or raise/shove (both are possible at that stack depth, though both look equally poor to me)

So what would you do then?

Essexphil

HAYSIE said:

Essexphil said:

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

Of course which players are in the hand matters. Although I do not think it is fair to comment on players not in the thread.

To take 2 simple examples. Because we all have different call/raise ranges, and different 3-bet and 4-bet ranges.

We know @Tikay10 is not wedded to AQ in that spot. Because he said so. Which means his calling and raising range is very narrow. Whereas you are considerably more "sticky". You are likely to call in that spot. (If you did not, then the hand would likely not merit discussion).

Some players flat monsters in early position. some people 3 and 4-bet with only 2 or 3 hands, whereas others raise far wider. All vital info before deciding whether to fold, call or raise/shove (both are possible at that stack depth, though both look equally poor to me)

So what would you do then?

When I said:-

"I lean towards a fold...but call is an option"

That was a clue

Some calls, more folds, never raise/shove

HAYSIE

Essexphil said:

HAYSIE said:

Essexphil said:

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,794
10:28 edited 10:28
As ever, player-dependant. But without that info:-

Raise is comfortably the worst option. 3 behind, 2 of which are Raisers. That is setting fire to money.

Which leaves us with call or raise. Think I lean towards Fold. But the effective stacks are quite large, so Call is an option

HAYSIE said:

EssexphilEssexphil Member

Ok you can have the players.
UTG mildsteal0
+1 MynaFrett
+2 jedinemo
Button. lescrow07
SB. jonnyboy63
BB. HAYSIE.

Of course which players are in the hand matters. Although I do not think it is fair to comment on players not in the thread.

To take 2 simple examples. Because we all have different call/raise ranges, and different 3-bet and 4-bet ranges.

We know @Tikay10 is not wedded to AQ in that spot. Because he said so. Which means his calling and raising range is very narrow. Whereas you are considerably more "sticky". You are likely to call in that spot. (If you did not, then the hand would likely not merit discussion).

Some players flat monsters in early position. some people 3 and 4-bet with only 2 or 3 hands, whereas others raise far wider. All vital info before deciding whether to fold, call or raise/shove (both are possible at that stack depth, though both look equally poor to me)

So what would you do then?

When I said:-

"I lean towards a fold...but call is an option"

That was a clue

Some calls, more folds, never raise/shove

That is decisive.

MynaFrett

Tikay is bang on with his assessment of this situation as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore there is just NO cold calling out of position in multi way 3 bet pots. Nothing. Even if you ignore the limper and treat it as BB vs CO open BTN 3 bet you play fold or raise only from the BB. Doesn't matter whether the stacks are 100bb effective or 20bb effective. If you are in the BB, there is an open and the 3 bet comes from the SB only then can you start to flat some hands because you have position on the SB. You need position on at least one player in cold calling spots, if you are out of position against all players in these scenarios there is simply no calling. I see cold calling out of position all the time and it seems to be a huge leak for so many players. Too often they either find themselves in tough multi way spots or burning those chips when forced to fold too much of their range when the action is re-opened.

Call is by far the worst option and of all options that is the one burning money. It gets tough in these mixed stack size spots though because AQo would be a nice 4 bet bluff candidate here when all players are deep and we play it as 4 bet-fold but it mostly wants to play as a cold 4 bet shove vs ~40bb stacks from these positions.

Some good, aggressive players will mostly take the aggressive option here (raising), some good players who pass up on the more risky/marginal spots this deep will take the passive option here (folding). No good players will be calling any hands in these situations from the SB or BB ever.

stokefc

Am guessing Tony disagreed due to the fact he called or raised/shoved
Me , i'm mashing the fold button , aq unless you have reads imo is pretty weak hand against a bet and a 3 bet any time in a tourny but Tonys' results speak for themselves so what do i know

MynaFrett

stokefc said:

... but Tonys' results speak for themselves so what do i know...

It doesn't really work like that though. You can be a relatively big winner in the games you play and still have loads of little leaks in your game and even big fundamental flaws like having a cold-calling range from the blinds in 3 bet pots.

To namecheck a couple of good players with a good theoretical understanding who also sometimes contribute to these strategy posts @F_Ivanovic and @FeelGroggy if you were to go and load up all of their MTT during a session I'm willing to bet you wouldn't see either of them cold-call from the blinds in these 3 bet pots with these stack distributions a single time, wouldn't matter whether they had AA, AQo, KQs or TT/99, it wouldn't happen.

Slipwater

It's a fold 99% of the time for me. I don't like AQ at the best of times, so I'm usually looking for any excuse to fold it

Besides... there are very no flops (assuming you even see the flop at this price after the action completes) that you will feel comfortable with, with the exception of QQX.

Fold, and find a better spot.

MynaFrett

MynaFrett

The above article is based on non bounty hunter ranges. Some of the in position ranges will be wider/looser in bounty hunters but the same principles still apply with regards to cold calling in 3 bet pots from the blinds regardless of format.

F_Ivanovic

MynaFrett said:

stokefc said:

... but Tonys' results speak for themselves so what do i know...

To namecheck a couple of good players with a good theoretical understanding who also sometimes contribute to these strategy posts @F_Ivanovic and @FeelGroggy if you were to go and load up all of their MTT during a session I'm willing to bet you wouldn't see either of them cold-call from the blinds in these 3 bet pots with these stack distributions a single time, wouldn't matter whether they had AA, AQo, KQs or TT/99, it wouldn't happen.

What you said and then followed up with is obviously correct to a normal sized 3b but I'm unsure if this min size changes things. I think against the min size you can get away with some calling because the OR is priced in with any 2 and thus doesn't need to 4b as much. (plus you're obv getting a better price)

But AQo would certainly not be a part of that calling range - that's def a hand that wants to either fold or 4b/jam.

stokefc

MynaFrett said:

The above article is based on non bounty hunter ranges. Some of the in position ranges will be wider/looser in bounty hunters but the same principles still apply with regards to cold calling in 3 bet pots from the blinds regardless of format.

That's the end of that chapter
Thanks myna

MynaFrett

F_Ivanovic said:

MynaFrett said:

stokefc said:

... but Tonys' results speak for themselves so what do i know...

To namecheck a couple of good players with a good theoretical understanding who also sometimes contribute to these strategy posts @F_Ivanovic and @FeelGroggy if you were to go and load up all of their MTT during a session I'm willing to bet you wouldn't see either of them cold-call from the blinds in these 3 bet pots with these stack distributions a single time, wouldn't matter whether they had AA, AQo, KQs or TT/99, it wouldn't happen.

What you said and then followed up with is obviously correct to a normal sized 3b but I'm unsure if this min size changes things. I think against the min size you can get away with some calling because the OR is priced in with any 2 and thus doesn't need to 4b as much. (plus you're obv getting a better price)

But AQo would certainly not be a part of that calling range - that's def a hand that wants to either fold or 4b/jam.

Interesting, I hadn't really considered the impact of the smaller 3 bet size on the openers 4 bet frequency but what it does then is make it almost certain we ARE going to go out of position against two ranges with the openers increased flatting range in that case in what is still going to be a 3 bet pot (even though it's at a discount) if we start having a cold calling range here. Isn't it less about pot odds and more about how hard it is to realise equity out of position against two players in a 3 bet pot and also get full value the times me make a strong hand whilst also avoiding being on the wrong side of a 'cooler' when there is a lot of action though?

Enut

@MynaFrett your GTO post took longer to read than I normally last in most MTTs. I'm just glad I reached the conclusion to fold AQ based on gut instinct rather than GTO or any semblance of poker ability!