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Thoughts on folding KK pre flop

OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
edited April 2010 in The Poker Clinic
All the books, all the forums, all the advice says you should never fold KK pre ( cash ).
I do not doubt that it is profitable in the long term if you never fold this hand pre flop, but obv if you can lay them down when you are up against AA, they would be even more profitable.

Time and time again, I find myself in situations where Im more than half sure my oppo has AA, but cant fold KK coz of what the books say etc.
This hand arose last night, I stacked off again as usual, even knowing I should be folding.

Villain seemed pretty solid from what I remember and hadnt got out of line, but I had no real reads.

(ps, yes I know I was playing underolled)
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    lol, forgot to post hand . Here it is
    iklejack Small blind  £0.15 £0.15 £43.22
    PokerDon1 Big blind  £0.30 £0.45 £20.40
      Your hole cards
    • K
    • K
    		     
    DOHHHHHHH Fold     
    OMahonyO Raise  £1.20 £1.65 £26.93
    wakeanjim1 Fold     
    richy119 Fold     
    iklejack Raise  £2.40 £4.05 £40.82
    PokerDon1 Fold     
    OMahonyO Raise  £6.30 £10.35 £20.63
    iklejack Raise  £11.40 £21.75 £29.42
    OMahonyO Call  £6.45 £28.20 £14.18
    Flop
       
    • 8
    • 4
    • 2
    		     
    iklejack All-in  £29.42 £57.62 £0.00
    OMahonyO All-in  £14.18 £71.80 £0.00
    iklejack Unmatched bet  £15.24 £56.56 £15.24
    iklejack Show
    • A
    • A
    		   
    OMahonyO Show
    • K
    • K
    		   
    Turn
       
    • 5
    		     
    River
       
    • 10
    		     
    iklejack Win Pair of Aces £54.76  £70.00
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  • luvBWFCluvBWFC Member Posts: 763
    edited April 2010
    My first thought is - Don't

    If you are against AA you are 4 - 1 dog
    If you are against any other pp you are 4 - 1 fave
    If you are against Ax you are 70%
    If against 2 undercards you are 4 - 1 fave (approximately. some variance here on suit and if your pp interfers with the str8 possibilities of the undercards)
    If you are against Kx (x < /> A) then you are a bit better than 4 - 1 fave.

    In a ring game particularly, where you can re-load, why would you fold?
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    You can, but I don't recommend it because at micros the amount of times this is just a blow up or a guy who doesn't know what to do w/ JJ/QQ/ when facing another raise makes this never a fold.
    Don't get in a habit of thinking of folding KK in HU 6max pots you'll lose too much value and you'll get owned for your nittyness when you move up.
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  • Mr_MiyagiMr_Miyagi Member Posts: 2,031
    edited April 2010
    This happened to me, feel like folding everything pre-flop now.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding KK pre flop:
    You can, but I don't recommend it because at micros the amount of times this is just a blow up or a guy who doesn't know what to do w/ JJ/QQ/ when facing another raise makes this never a fold. Don't get in a habit of thinking of folding KK in HU 6max pots you'll lose too much value and you'll get owned for your nittyness when you move up.
    Posted by zing
    Interesting, fwiw I wouldnt be folding if this was below nl10 or above nl50.  The stakes in between, kind of show this hand face up. JJ QQ I reckon are rarely playing it like this at these stakes.  They usually flat or shove with those. nl50 and above , the plyers have some game and could have a wider range.  Below nl10 they are just nuts and could literally have any 2
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  • big_mick12big_mick12 Member Posts: 210
    edited April 2010
    Unfortunately it happens somtimes you just run into the top of people ranges, but my folding preflop is -EV. You may feel like a genius when you fold them and the guy flips over AA. But the vast majority of the time he wont and you will scoop a big pot.
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    Aye my experience is the same with nl20/30/40 but I'm still not folding because I can never be totally sure and that's enough for me.
    Main thing is you have no real reads so you never fold as there is always a chance at micros people do really stupid stuff. There's only extreme cases where you are 100% sure then you can fold but as you 4+table I'd advise you to never fold cause you won't have this good of a read generally.
    You must be running or playing bad to be analysing folding KK PF as this is not a leak so don't worry about it.
    If you could import hands from Sky into HEM or PTR and see your winnings with KK preflop you'd be assured and focus on more important things.
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited April 2010
    I must admit there have been a couple of times where I've contemplated folding kings pre flop but I never actually have. I just figure that the chances of coming up against aces is just too small to worry about it & against anything else you're a favourite.

    There are times when I think it would be worth laying them down such as the bubble of a satellite when 2 or more are already all in pre but that's about the only time I would really do it.
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  • HAL_9000HAL_9000 Member Posts: 216
    edited April 2010
    Had this the other night live, the last hand had been called and i raised a reraise and he needed to put £300 in to call he said i know you have aces and threw down KK there had been some AA KK action earlier which may have affected his decission.
    As it was last hand i showed the aces
    we both decided to see what the flop was (for fun) it was a low rainbow he would of shoved i would of called and the aces would of held but i prefer to win small pots....then lose big ones.

    Keep Smiling
    HAL_9000
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2010
    The fold button doesn't even come up as an option when I am dealted the pocket king and king.
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited April 2010
    KK is foldable but not in that situation. Against 1 oppo im in there like swimwear, against 2 its iffy but I still go all in, against 3 im folding. 1 of the oppo's may not have AA but there will be outs all over the place and you will be favourite to not win.
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited April 2010
    After putting that I thought I would put some hands into an odds calculator to see if what I thought is right.
    These are the hands I chose.

    KK - 42%
    AK - 20%
    10,10 - 16%
    7,8 suited - 20%

    note KK all in pre is less than 50%
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding KK pre flop:
    After putting that I thought I would put some hands into an odds calculator to see if what I thought is right. These are the hands I chose. KK - 42% AK - 20% 10,10 - 16% 7,8 suited - 20% note KK all in pre is less than 50%
    Posted by FlashFlush
    I do see your point, but that example is even less foldable.  Theres no way I would fold there if I was sure of the oppos hands.  In reality, you cant be sure, and in a 4 way all in, you gotta think that aces poppin up somewhere is a huge possibility.
    Would you really fold there if the cards were face up??
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    Why do you flat call preflop if you are getting it in on the flop?
    Surely you lose value from big ace hands?
    Or maybe you give JJ-QQ a chance to get away.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding KK pre flop:
    After putting that I thought I would put some hands into an odds calculator to see if what I thought is right. These are the hands I chose. KK - 42% AK - 20% 10,10 - 16% 7,8 suited - 20% note KK all in pre is less than 50%
    Posted by FlashFlush

    The pot is 4 times bigger when 4 people are in though, that is kinda important.

    50% equity in a  4 way pot is better than 60% equity in a HU pot.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited April 2010
    When deep (150bbs at least), sure you can think about folding them. Otherwise don't bother at this level :)
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  • hurst05hurst05 Member Posts: 1,567
    edited April 2010
    the only time im folding KK is if im playing in the wsop in the first level or so and have 2 people go allin before me.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Thoughts on folding KK pre flop:
    Why do you flat call preflop if you are getting it in on the flop? Surely you lose value from big ace hands? Or maybe you give JJ-QQ a chance to get away.
    Posted by BlackFish3

    Lol, I wondered when someone would ask this.  Truth is I dont know.  I was so sure I was beat that I couldnt shove, but yet couldnt bring myself to fold.  I think I was hoping for a miracle K high flop so at least I couldve got some of my stack in ahead, but I dont think there are any flops I was folding to.  As to losing value from big ace hands, I really could not put Ax in his range.
      Look at his 5bet, its not even minimum.  AK or AQ is never making that bet imo.  There are only 2 hands I reckon are played this way at nl20/30, and Ive got one of them.

    I guess I will keep having to stack off with KK when I know someone has AA in case I get it wrong I spose.

    btw, if I knew that villain would show his hand if I had folded, I would prob have folded.  An expensive thing is curiosity
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