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Folding Overpairs

BooniconBoonicon Member Posts: 130
edited April 2010 in The Poker Clinic
Hi all,

Assume that players are sat with 100 big blinds, and you get dealt aa.  In a standard format, you 3 bet pre and opponent calls.  Flop looks safe.  You bet flop, and they re raise.  Considering size of stacks and pot at this point, you are almost pot commited: if you re raise back to the opponent, and they go all in, you may finally have the information that you are behind but by this point you are getting good odds to call against 2 pair, or possibility of kk etc.

If this ends with opponent winning with set, or 2 pair, do people put this down to varience or do you think there is a better way to get information and get out?  I appreciate that in different circumstances its easy to get away from overpair, but with this betting pattern I find it hard to find a time to get out of the hand.


I guess that there is a point where giving advice to questions like this gives away your competative edge, so I don't know if this thread will get any good answers, but thought it was an interesting subject.
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Comments

  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2010
    i think you just have to get it in without any good reads there is to many hands that you are beating, its pretty horrible calling a 3 bet with small/med pps, just shove the flop and next hand please
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    Name what you define a "safe flop" and "standard format".

    Question also depends on if villain is a reg or a random who will call 3bets with any 2 suited cards cause they saw it on tv.

    Your question is way too broad as there are too many variables to take into account making it near impossible for an accurate concise answer.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO Member Posts: 1,883
    edited April 2010
    I dunno boon but its a good question.  From personal experience, more often than not, if I get flatted on the flop and raised on the turn, I am usually up against a flopped set or some other hand that crushes my AA.
    Also, it is a lot easier to lay down the aces on say a Q hi flop than a 9 hi flop as in the 1st scenario only KK  and AQ could reasonably assume they are beating you, and in second scenario TT, JJ, QQ, KK etc could think they have you beat.  Actually looking forward to others views on this as Its something that is on my mind from time to time.
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  • ChirpyChipChirpyChip Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    Can't fold AA in this spot... too many hands you are beating....I think you are just becoming paranoid about being beat cuz you have received so many bad beats... don't lose your edge Boon.....
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  • BooniconBoonicon Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2010
    By standard format I was just refering to 3 betting pre flop and opponent calling.  And for the sake of arguement lets say the flop is 6 8 Q of different suits.  I just meant that there is no flush or straight, and theres not loads of paint etc.  2 pair is possible if opponent had called with suited connecters (6, 8), AQ is possible, KK is possible, or a set.

    Thanks for the replies, if the conclusion is that youve just got to get the money in do you put sets vs your aa down to varience and move on?  I feel like I should be able to get away from it somehow, but maybe I shouldn't be considering that in this situation.
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    Kinda range you can put on villain below means I'm never folding this flop texture facing any action readless. This is without random AK combos which people shove on sky a lot on these boards when they flat 3bets and other random stuff.

    Board: Qs 8c 6d
    Dead:  

    equity win tie      pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 68.708%   68.71% 00.00%         26528        0.00   { AhAs }
    Hand 1: 31.292%   31.29% 00.00%         12082        0.00   { KK-JJ, 88, 66, AQs, KQs, AQo, KQo }

    If you're looking to find a way to fold these boards w/ AA readless you are way too paranoid and over analysing standard spots where you're looking for max value.



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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    Yes, shame on me for using math to substantiate my point to the OP.

    And you say my posts are pointless? The irony..
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo Member Posts: 749
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs:
    Yes, shame on me for using math to substantiate my point to the OP. And you say my posts are pointless? The irony..
    Posted by zing
    QFT
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2010

    Zing, I want to stand on your calculator!

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    So frustrating
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop Member Posts: 3,795
    edited April 2010
    oh i thought it was quite fu**ing true!!! lool
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs:
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs : QFT
    Posted by Cowgomoo
    Kids and their lingo eh... moooo w tf does QFT mean :S
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo Member Posts: 749
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs:
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs : Kids and their lingo eh... moooo w tf does QFT mean :S
    Posted by BlackFish3
    Quote For Truth.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited April 2010
    I think this is probably a good example of the sort of hand Boonicon is referring to. I'm not sure if I can get away here or not, the villain had generally been calling alot of my raises but been fairly passive on the flop, but I'd also seen him overvaluing a couple of hands against other players.

    Is this absolutely standard?


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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47 Member Posts: 381
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Folding Overpairs:
    I think I'm a lot more worried in the above hand opposed to a 3bet pot on roughly the same board/action.
    Posted by zing
    +1

    In an aggressive game its bad to fold tpgk in a 3bet pot , in the above hand it would depend on reads, the villan is obviously loose as they called with j8 utg+1 so if hes like most loose players at these stakes which are loose-passive then i would fold and if they are more aggro then i would call.
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    I think I'm a lot more worried in the above hand opposed to a 3bet pot on roughly the same board/action.
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited April 2010
    I'm confused now...

    Boonicon are you talking about 3bet pots or simply when you open AA EP and get a caller or two? 

    As the two differ vastly..

    To me the above hand bears no relation to this topic/discussion as I was referring to 3bet pots exclusively.



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  • BooniconBoonicon Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2010
    I was originally asking about 3 bet pots, but cliokids hand is much the same question.  I understand 3 betting narrows opponents range etc, and it plays differently, but with no slow play post flop do you think its a lot easier to fold this hand?  I would guess that I am behind in cliokids hand, but a lot of the time I feel the same way about the hand that I described.
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  • BooniconBoonicon Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2010
    Yeah this sort of thing illustrates my question cliokid, no slow play by you, no massive obvious hands to beat you, should you be able to get away or should it be written off as varience?

    I am often tempted to fold these sort of hands, but as people have said there are still a lot of hands that we beat.  I can't think of a good way to gain more information with betting, while still protecting our hand.  Also, by the time the opponent chucks it all in, it is very hard to fold for the price anyway.

    Without good reads on opponents I am starting to think you just have to put the chips in and close your eyes!?
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited April 2010
    Ok I'm not sure what happened there...

    Hand is as follows.

    £.50/£1

    Me: UTG with AA, raise to £4, UTG + 1 calls the £4.

    The BB calls also.

    Flop J84 rainbow.

    I bet 3/4 pot around £10, UTG +1 calls. BB folds.

    Turn 3

    I bet £23, UTG + 1 goes all in for £70.

    I call and villain shows J8 for top two.

    Can I play this differently? Or just take it on the chin and move on? 
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