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Tough decision?

Strat91Strat91 Member Posts: 112
edited May 2010 in The Poker Clinic

Ok I have been playing in a tournament for about 2 1/2 hours. 400 people started and now you are down to 51 which is exactly ONE PLACE OUT OF THE MONEY. You have 5000 chips, are on the button with the blinds at 300/600 ante 50.

A solid player in middle position moves ALL IN for 6000 chips and it folds around to you. You have JJ. Just to cash this tournament means your BR increases by 20%.
Fold or Call?

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    YoungUnYoungUn Member Posts: 422
    edited April 2010
    Snap call. I want to win tournaments, not just cash them in. Anyone that folds is taking the wrong attitude to Tournament Poker IMO.
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    DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited April 2010
    fold. At best you're in a 50/50 race for your tourney, at worst you're completely dominated by a higher pair. Sure, there's the possibility he has 10s, 9's, 8's- but if you're saying he's a solid player, unlikely to be doing that on the bubble. Then again, if he's a good player that knows how the bubble works, maybe he's banking on people folding anything less than QQ.

    Whatever happens, you're putting your tourney on the line on a coin flip twice- once wondering what he has, and again once you go heads up- because even if you are ahead pre flop, he could catch a set/straight/flush/2 pair depending on his cards and you're still out.

    Not for me, if you can get your chips in first- sure, but I wouldn't be calling in this position without kings IMO, the position is important. On the BB facing a push from the button? I think I'm calling from there, the odds of him trying to buy your blinds are massively higher, and you could easily be facing a push from 7/3 or some garbage like that. If you do run into a big pair, then that's harsh luck- but if you double up, you're almost guaranteed to cash high.
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    DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,927
    edited April 2010


    Foldddddddddddddd - Key info - 20% BR increase......

    Thats huge
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    KevilfishKevilfish Member Posts: 354
    edited April 2010
    FOLD, there's no need to take a chance in this spot. If you had cashed already then I'd have to call it but at that point on the bubble, with two players to act behind you as well, it's not worth it when you are certain that you could fold your way into the money.
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    big_mick12big_mick12 Member Posts: 210
    edited April 2010
    Snap call all day long, how anyone can say that at best your flippin is wrong, a guy open shoves for 10bb his range is huge here, and with less then 10bb yourself you got to make a move soon and jj is as good as you can hope for.

    If the money means so much to your BR you shouldn't be playing. The money should not affect yout decision making and just making the cash isnt what you should be aiming for you should look to win any tourny you enter.
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    BrownnDogBrownnDog Member Posts: 729
    edited April 2010
    Is it JJ suited? If it is then I call. If the JJ is unsuited I fold. 
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    ALIVEHAT60ALIVEHAT60 Member Posts: 125
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Tough decision?

    Do you not realise? that poker is about gambling!!! and to get 2 Jacks at ANYTIME pre flop!!! have you thought about playing darts or snooker or some other non sporting activity, because you're missing the point.          Kind regards
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    MereNoviceMereNovice Member Posts: 4,364
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Tough decision? Do you not realise? that poker is about gambling!!! and to get 2 Jacks at ANYTIME pre flop!!! have you thought about playing darts or snooker or some other non sporting activity, because you're missing the point.          Kind regards
    Posted by ALIVEHAT60
    Do you not realise that playing successful poker is about removing as much of the outright gambling as possible from the game and making the best informed decisions that we can at each point.
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    Is it JJ suited? If it is then I call. If the JJ is unsuited I fold. 
    Posted by BrownnDog
    I wish you were more funny...
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    penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,094
    edited April 2010
    With the BR issue you have to fold, but where do you draw the line, would you fold QQ ? KK ? Tikay would fold AA !

    With no bankroll worries I may make the call. because to make the serious money you have to be aiming to final table not just beat the bubble.

    But it all depends on the opponent, how solid is he ? What is his range in that spot ? Could he be just using the bubble pressure to shove with a mid pair or A 10/ A J ?
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    BrownnDogBrownnDog Member Posts: 729
    edited April 2010
    LOL
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    BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited April 2010
    msn B dog
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    Strat91Strat91 Member Posts: 112
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Tough decision? Do you not realise? that poker is about gambling!!! and to get 2 Jacks at ANYTIME pre flop!!! have you thought about playing darts or snooker or some other non sporting activity, because you're missing the point.          Kind regards
    Posted by ALIVEHAT60
    I wish I could have you as a poker motivator telling the world how to play. Please Full Tilt. Give this guy a sponsor..
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    ALIVEHAT60ALIVEHAT60 Member Posts: 125
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Re: Tough decision? : Do you not realise that playing successful poker is about removing as much of the outright gambling as possible from the game and making the best informed decisions that we can at each point.
    Posted by MereNovice
    As you know MereNovice,I am a mere novice,so you think that playing successful poker, is about folding 2 Jacks pre flop?,you cannot take the outright gambling from the game!!! nobody is successful at poker without the risks ( GAMBLING ) plus a certain amount of luck otherwise whats the point of the exercise. So under the same circumstances where do you draw the line?,why not fold Aces,Kings,Queens,after all you can get beat on the flop the turn, the river,so to be on the safe side don't play the game at all.                                                       Kind regards
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    ALIVEHAT60ALIVEHAT60 Member Posts: 125
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Re: Tough decision? : I wish I could have you as a poker motivator telling the world how to play. Please Full Tilt. Give this guy a sponsor..
    Posted by Strat91
    The World is'nt being told how to play,but obviously someone needs to tell you,what are you doing trying to play poker? you don't know when to call or fold,otherwise you would not have posted, it can be a bit scary out there, so be wary of those pesky Aces or Kings or Queens.Sky Poker do some great tutorials, and that nice Mr Kendal and the boys will be happy to give you some advice and tips.                                                        Kind regards
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    Strat91Strat91 Member Posts: 112
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Re: Tough decision? : As  you know MereNovice,I am a mere novice,so you think that playing successful poker, is about folding 2 Jacks pre flop?,you cannot take the outright gambling from the game!!! nobody is successful at poker without the risks ( GAMBLING ) plus a certain amount of luck otherwise whats the point of the exercise. So under the same circumstances where do you draw the line?,why not fold Aces,Kings,Queens,after all you can get beat on the flop the turn, the river,so to be on the safe side don't play the game at all.                                                       Kind regards
    Posted by ALIVEHAT60
    I have exactly the same debates with my mum about this. You sound just like her.. A woman failing to understand simple poker theory. Key points to look out for 1) 20% BR increase. 2) A solid player shoving from mid position.
      
    Of course you can make a case for calling here your just going the wrong way about it. And errrm... "Kind Regards"
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    Strat91Strat91 Member Posts: 112
    edited April 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    In Response to Re: Tough decision? : The World is'nt being told how to play,but obviously someone needs to tell you,what are you doing trying to play poker? you don't know when to call or fold,otherwise you would not have posted, it can be a bit scary out there, so be wary of those pesky Aces or Kings or Queens.Sky Poker do some great tutorials, and that nice Mr Kendal and the boys will be happy to give you some advice and tips.                                                        Kind regards
    Posted by ALIVEHAT60
    I would be so, so much happier if you were a very good poker player being very sarcastic/acting like an idiot. Chances of that are slim.. very slim.
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    Mr_MiyagiMr_Miyagi Member Posts: 2,031
    edited May 2010
    from personal expericene you should.  Today I had JJ and was 6 places from the bubble with 5k(approx) chips. a players with 4.6k went all in.

    I went all in, and then so did the guy after me who had almost identical chips as mine, he had A4 and he hit his A on the flop.


    this left me with 0.34 of a chip with 5places to the bubble.

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    Strat91Strat91 Member Posts: 112
    edited May 2010
    In Response to Re: Tough decision?:
    from personal expericene you should.  Today I had JJ and was 6 places from the bubble with 5k(approx) chips. a players with 4.6k went all in. I went all in, and then so did the guy after me who had almost identical chips as mine, he had A4 and he hit his A on the flop. this left me with 0.34 of a chip with 5places to the bubble.
    Posted by Mr_Miyagi
    I take it you cashed then went on to win the tourny.
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    MohicanMohican Member Posts: 1,421
    edited May 2010
    Optimal bubble strategy from the guy shoving all-in. He's got ten big blinds so his range is quite wide and knows that only the chip leader can call with anything less than a premium hand, so he shoves and lets all the short and medium stacks worry about the bubble. You've got less than ten big blinds and you get the fourth best starting hand in poker. Call away and hope he has a smaller pair/strong Ace.
     Say you fold and hope to cash before the blinds get to you, you're gonna lose 300 chips to ante's(assuming it's 10 seated) by the time the big blind hits. With you paying the BB, you've lost 20% of your stack(compared to your stack with the JJ)and are rapidly losing fold equity. To call a min raise is gonna cost you over 10% of your stack.A decent raise is gonna pot commit you and you might be forced to do it with a lot worse than J J.
     To me, you're only delaying a tough decision and throwing away a premium hand with less than 10 BB in your stack.
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