What's the best play here?

luvBWFC

This is a common situation that I feel is a leak for me. What would you do in the below case? You have a fairly trashy hand in the BB, one min raiser action to you. Do you just wave bye bye to teh chips and fold, or do you call with your 3.5 - 1 pot odds? Would you even raise?

Hand History #256470519 (21:27 05/05/2010)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Flat_Tire	Small blind		300.00	300.00	6097.50
luvBWFC	Big blind		600.00	900.00	18587.50
	Your hole cards	8 10
kartboy70	Fold
MRSCR7	Raise		1200.00	2100.00	8842.50
pas40	Fold
farkstar	Fold
Flat_Tire	Fold

Dudeskin8

Need to know chip stacks here. But generally just fold.

35suited

luv 18.5k
mrscr 8.8k

Dudeskin8

Cheers 35, just figured it out you click and drag to left, I like it better when you can just use your eyes to look.

Anyway still just fold the awful hand.

Action_Dan

It's something I struggle with too! I personally call in this situation as I'm deep stacked and can hit some nice flops but I'm treading carefully if hit top pair etc! Fold is also acceptable to avoid getting yourself in situation like top pair where you feel inclined to continue despite better judgement but I think there's some scope for raising if you're really looking to dominate table - min raise is either cheap attempt at stealing/marginal hand or massive hand so come over the top with good raise (you're deep enough to make moves like this) and see how much opponent likes their hand! Obviously safest option would be fold but always tempting when getting nice odds and already invested big blind - in these spots, I always talk good game and think yeah raise raise raise but when it's actually my chips, I tend to be conservative, go into my shell and see the flop!

Donut64

If Im playing it against some one as been playing tight I fold. If Im playing against some one who can fold after flop I call then raise after flop to see if they have anything. If they do a min raise every time pre-flop I re-raise and if they call I then raise again after flop to see if they called to save face! If I get lucky and hit the flop hard I still make the same moves after the flop as I would do with nothing! So in short the best play is the reading of your opponent!

luvBWFC

It appears I am much like Action_Dan

luvBWFC	Call		600.00	2700.00	17987.50
Flop
		4 4 8

OK I almost certainly should have folded pre-flop. But given that I didn't, what would you do now?

Donut64

If i had not had a read on them and played they way I said now I would check and Re-raise any small continuation bet to see were I was!

Action_Dan

In Response to Re: What's the best play here?:

It appears I am much like Action_Dan luvBWFC Call   600.00 2700.00 17987.50 Flop     4 4 8     OK I almost certainly should have folded pre-flop. But given that I didn't, what would you do now?
Posted by luvBWFC

I'd much rather see something like K 7 9 flop than that but now we're in this position, we need to think about opponents previous - how does he react to "donk bet"? Will he come back over the top with AK/AQ type hands or will he give up? It sums up perfectly how for extra 600 chips, we can get ourselves into horrible situations check call/check raise/bet fold/bet & call all in - every option is as uncomfortable as walking in on Tikay "moisturising"...

Action_Dan

In Response to Re: What's the best play here?:

If i had not had a read on them and played they way I said now I would check and Re-raise any small continuation bet to see were I was!
Posted by Donut64

Would this commit us to calling their re-shove? They've got 8k so any decent re-raise from us would mean it'd be about another 4k to call their shove so can't fold for that surely? The more I think about this, the more we should've folded great thread this!

Donut64

In Response to Re: What's the best play here?:

In Response to Re: What's the best play here? : Would this commit us to calling their re-shove? They've got 8k so any decent re-raise from us would mean it'd be about another 4k to call their shove so can't fold for that surely? The more I think about this, the more we should've folded great thread this!
Posted by Action_Dan

 I can see were you are coming from but I feel I can still get away if he re-raises me but their is nothing to say they will! If they do in reality Im putting them on a A8,A4 a over pair  or a flush draw!

lynx3ffect

This is all about stack sizes and whether he has fold equity
Villain starts with 15bb, after you call the pot will be 4.5 so any c-bet he is near pot committed - your hand doesnt flop well at all OOP, even top pair you arent in love with but will have to stack off with against his size stack
In this situation I fold pre unless i have reads he does this with suited conns and might fold to a re-raise but i htink thats unlikely
As played, you hit tp so i bet out and shut down if i get action
Its a massive leak calling off with these kinda hands OOP, similar stack sizes you could argue its worth it but i'd prefer raising to get control of hte pot and any dry K high type boards im firing 2 barrels at least to get him folding out PPs
Im not a tourney player at all but generally speaking call off light OOP isnt a good idea

luvBWFC

I fully agree I should have folded pre. But we are where we are I decided to bet,

luvBWFC	Bet		2025.00	4725.00	15962.50
MRSCR7	Call		2025.00	6750.00	6817.50
Turn
		J

Forstly was my bet the right kind of size? Secondly given the call and the turn, what next?

Action_Dan

In Response to Re: What's the best play here?:

I fully agree I should have folded pre. But we are where we are I decided to bet, luvBWFC Bet   2025.00 4725.00 15962.50 MRSCR7 Call   2025.00 6750.00 6817.50 Turn     J     Forstly was my bet the right kind of size? Secondly given the call and the turn, what next?
Posted by luvBWFC

That's confusing as most pairs better than 8 should shove that flop so it looks like someone not wanting to let go of their over cards - SHOVE! Ok that's the aggressive approach but the reserved Action_Dan would probably check in hope of getting to showdown - our situation isn't getting any better and with 6k pot and them having 6k behind, we can't bet fold so it's all or nothing...let go and keep our 16k stack intact with only 3k damage or shove the lot in and hope for fold?

Donut64

Imo If he is coming in in that positoin in a tounement he has possibly a pocket pair, suited connecters, 2 large cards or any ace. He min raises to see were he is hoping only the big blind comes along and if he misses he puts a small bet in to hopefully to take the pot down if that doesnt work I feel they intend to put it down! If they put a big continuation bet they are commited and I fold and I lose a small percentage of my stack. Thatswhy I feel it is right to check/raise or fold!

luvBWFC

I decided that if I make any reasonable bet here and he reraises I would have to call anyway, so I go ahead and put him all in hoping to see AK/AQ etc

luvBWFC	Bet		6750.00	13500.00	9212.50
MRSCR7	All-in		6817.50	20317.50	0.00
luvBWFC	Call		67.50	20385.00	9145.00
luvBWFC	Show	8 10
MRSCR7	Show	Q Q
River
		9
MRSCR7	Win	Two Pairs, Queens and 4s	20385.00		20385.00

and that is how a call of 600 for 3.5-1 pot odds cost me 10k. The minimum I want to take from thsi is an understanding of all my mistakes so that I can learn something!

Donut64

In Response to Re: What's the best play here?:

I fully agree I should have folded pre. But we are where we are I decided to bet, luvBWFC Bet   2025.00 4725.00 15962.50 MRSCR7 Call   2025.00 6750.00 6817.50 Turn     J     Forstly was my bet the right kind of size? Secondly given the call and the turn, what next?
Posted by luvBWFC

I dont like this now I am confused the only hand I would of called with there is 84 If I was looking for the flush I would have jammed in is positoin also if I had any big pair or A8 or the 4 to make you pay if you had been looking for the flush! My only thought is now he may have pocket 5s,6s or 7s and hoping for a miracle!

Donut64

It so difficult to say what would have happend if you had checked the flop would they have min raised or pushed harder, I dont know? If they had pushed harder you could have got away! If they had min raised and you re-raised Would they have called or re-re-raised. If they called I wouldnt have been putting in another penny unless my hand improved If they re-re-raised Im out of there!

BlackFish3

Fold preflop
Check call the flop
After you donk bet the flop it's just a world of problems so I can't really say what I would do after that...

Argh it all hinges on the call preflop... everything after that is so difficult... please just fold preflop next time lol.

silentbob

Always a spot I hate finding myself in but it's not often I'll call unless the blinds are smaller.

One thing I've often wondered though, is there ever a point (pot odds wise) where you call a pre-flop raise regardless of your cards? So many times I find myself in the blinds & someone's put in a min raise which is called by everyone so by the time it gets round to me I'm getting like 10/1 or 11/1 on my money.

beaneh

Shove or fold pre depending on the player type and tournie standings.