Call or raise?

yb

Basically this player has been pretty loose passive (a bit of a calling station tbh). So how do you respond to the river bet?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£488.71
mrscruff34	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£134.95
	Your hole cards	J K
Randy76	Fold
stien	Fold
yb	Raise		£4.00	£5.50	£187.72
thedog29	Fold
x	Call		£3.50	£9.00	£485.21
mrscruff34	Fold
Flop
		10 5 4
x	Check
yb	Bet		£6.00	£15.00	£181.72
x	Call		£6.00	£21.00	£479.21
Turn
		6
x	Bet		£9.00	£30.00	£470.21
yb	Call		£9.00	£39.00	£172.72
River
		5
x	Bet		£23.00	£62.00	£447.21

beaneh

errrrrr???????????????????????????????????????????????

FOLD

DOHHHHHHH

He sped up on the turn, was he trying to buy a cheap card?  did the 6d seriously improve his hand?

Did he flop a set and decide the turn was scary so he had to get some money in?

I raise with your hand - I cant explain why, I dont know why, I just wing it. Put myself in that situation, and i'd raise. 

MereNovice

Raise to about £65 and fold if he shoves the lot in.

You've hit a backdoor 2nd nut flush after leading out on the flop so your strength is disguised somewhat.
He led out on the turn and that doesn't indicate to me that he is drawing to the nut flush (if he is a station).
If he just check called on that flop with a set, he's trapping nicely and deserves to get a bit of value from you.
His lead on the river looks a bit like a BBV (blocker bet for value) to me.

Having said all that, I call a lot in that situation because I don't have the cojones.

DeucesLive

I think he's got a big overpair and nothing else, looking at the betting... of the other options, could he have the straight? Very doubtful. Flush? Doubtful again. Trip 5's? With the pre betting, probably not. As a passive player, I doubt he'd continually bet with just AK/AQ/KQ etc, nor with a pair lower than 10's. So my guess is JJ/QQ/KK/AA, or a set of 10s. 4's is a marginal possibility too, but I don't think so. I'd call the bet on the end personally, since although he could have the overpair, the FH is a reasonably strong possibility, I'd put him on 10's.

And upon further evaluation of the hand, I realised I misread everything and was looking at your bets. As you're the aggressor and he's limping along as usual, I think you have him beat. Big chance he has the straight IMO, if he has hit the FH, then seriously unlucky. I'm with MN on this one, triple up his bet and see what he does- I couldn't call a shove there either, but you may get a crying call with the straight or trips. The way it's played out I'm thinking 78s.

beaneh

I don't see the discussion.

The decision is between raise to some number call it off and shove. 

I was joking when I was saying fold obviously.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

? I raise with your hand - I cant explain why, I dont know why, I just wing it. Put myself in that situation, and i'd raise. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Really though? You cant find a reason to raise when we have the second nut hand?!

yb

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : Really though? You cant find a reason to raise when we have the second nut hand?!
Posted by beaneh

Erm...so the possibility of a full house never crosses your mind there??? Thanks for the all the other very constructive replies guys!!

beaneh

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : Erm...so the possibility of a full house never crosses your mind there??? Thanks for the all the other very constructive replies guys!!
Posted by yb

yeah the possibility of all hands better cross my mind for like a split second.

Then I start profusely laughing out loud, and shovelling my chips in whilst fist pumping and singing songs about winnings lots of l'argent.

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

I don't see the discussion. The decision is between raise to some number call it off and shove.  I was joking when I was saying fold obviously.
Posted by beaneh

Phew. I thought you was, but I'm glad you confirmed it.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : Phew. I thought you was, but I'm glad you confirmed it.
Posted by Cowgomoo

i'm not as big a nit as you !!!

i'd have raise called this hand before I even see the board is paired! 

WE HAZ FRUSH

DOHHHHHHH

Maybe I know what to do, just dont know why to do it

end result is the same, learn by doing i spose

Eagle26

in Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : i'm not as big a nit as you !!! i'd have raise called this hand before I even see the board is paired!  WE HAZ FRUSH
Posted by beaneh

would you call if he shoves all-in after you raise?
also what is the correct amount to raise here? id prob make it around £55 is that not enough??

Cowgomoo

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : i'm not as big a nit as you !!! i'd have raise called this hand before I even see the board is paired!  WE HAZ FRUSH
Posted by beaneh

I do bluff.....sometimes.

zing

why would you ever just call this i don't get it

beaneh

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

in Response to Re: Call or raise? : would you call if he shoves all-in after you raise? also what is the correct amount to raise here? id prob make it around £55 is that not enough??
Posted by Eagle26

There is no 'correct' answer. We know nothing about this villain or how he views us. In general I would be raising pretty big and calling a shove, i've had people shove such stupid hands that unless I know he has a brain I wouldn't be folding. 

There is no decision here we must raise otherwise we'd have some sick reads we would have been told about already.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : I do bluff.....sometimes.
Posted by Cowgomoo

Bluff.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Call or raise?:

In Response to Re: Call or raise? : Bluff.
Posted by MereNovice

Good read MN (mbn )

yb

Ok so the general consensus is this is definitely a raise. Unfortunately i was a nit and just flat called

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
safasall06	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£488.71
mrscruff34	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£134.95
	Your hole cards	J K
Randy76	Fold
stien	Fold
yb	Raise		£4.00	£5.50	£187.72
thedog29	Fold
safasall06	Call		£3.50	£9.00	£485.21
mrscruff34	Fold
Flop
		10 5 4
safasall06	Check
yb	Bet		£6.00	£15.00	£181.72
safasall06	Call		£6.00	£21.00	£479.21
Turn
		6
safasall06	Bet		£9.00	£30.00	£470.21
yb	Call		£9.00	£39.00	£172.72
River
		5
safasall06	Bet		£23.00	£62.00	£447.21
yb	Call		£23.00	£85.00	£149.72
safasall06	Show	3 5
yb	Show	J K
yb	Win	Flush to the King	£83.20		£232.92

So basically I missed out on loads of value here. Fwiw I thought there was a decent chance he was slowplaying a set on the flop, then sped up on the turn when he saw a potential scare card. Also the river bet was the first time in the whole session that I saw him put a decent sized bet in (as opposed to normally just min betting / min raising etc), but I guess even then I was beating so much of his value range that I should still be raising this then re-evaluate if he shoves.

Fwiw betting (especially raising) for value on the river is one particular area where I can improve a lot imo.

MereNovice

I seem to recall hearing someone say that one of the things that sets the Ivey's of this world apart from the rest of us is the ability to make thin bets/raises on the river and get value that us mortals don't get.
It is certainly one of many things that sets him apart from me.

OMahonyO

yeah, this is one of my biggest problems / leaks. Getting value.  When the pot is big enough , I find myself checking when I should be betting.  tptk type hands oop, when you just know they have it with worse kicker but i check anyway knowing they would call ma half - 3/4 bet