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Big Blind (not so) Specials...
Springs
Member Posts: 67
I've been on a put of a poor run the last couple of weeks or so, where I've been getting my money in good, but getting outdrawn. Obviously, this is always going to happen, so no complaints about variance because it'll even itself out soon enough.
With these outdraws happening so often, I feel as though my play has declined. I'm now trying just to get down to showdown as cheaply as I can, which inevitably allows my opponent to catch up on the turn / river.
I have found myself using the 'call' button, which I despise as it fulfils absolutely no function.
So, rather than plod on regardless just hoping for a change in luck, and also to avoid too much table time while I'm playing poorly, I've decided to spend more time looking back at my hand histories and PT3 stats.
Going through these thoroughly over the weekend has left me with 3 pieces of information;
1) Calling nearly every 3-bet to try and hit a set isn't so profitable!
2) I play AK far too aggressively, and end up either winning tiny pots, or losing huge ones.
3) The only seat I lose money in, is the Big Blind.
Number 3 is my real concern, because I can fix 1 and 2, but I think I could do with some advice on my third point.
I'd always just stubbornly thought I lost money in the BB because it's a forced bet, but this is obviously untrue because I am showing a profit from the SB.
I've looked at this over a fairly large sample, c. 45,000 hands, so I can't just label it down to coolers happening in this one position.
- Am I calling too many hands in the BB?
Possibly.
- Am I 3-betting too often?
Almost definitely, it is my standard reaction to fold mediocre hands to an EP / MP raise, but then convince myself ALL LP raises are steals, and I find myself re-raising, then firing out on the flop. This is only ever a costly practice.
So, any advice on the BB problems would be greatly received.
(Sorry it's such a long post, but I wanted to explain my position fully. Also, hopefully certain people will have got bored half way through and looked at another thread meaning there'll be no "fold more" posts. *Bracing myself for the first one*)
Thanks.
EDIT - Cash games, not STT / MTT
With these outdraws happening so often, I feel as though my play has declined. I'm now trying just to get down to showdown as cheaply as I can, which inevitably allows my opponent to catch up on the turn / river.
I have found myself using the 'call' button, which I despise as it fulfils absolutely no function.
So, rather than plod on regardless just hoping for a change in luck, and also to avoid too much table time while I'm playing poorly, I've decided to spend more time looking back at my hand histories and PT3 stats.
Going through these thoroughly over the weekend has left me with 3 pieces of information;
1) Calling nearly every 3-bet to try and hit a set isn't so profitable!
2) I play AK far too aggressively, and end up either winning tiny pots, or losing huge ones.
3) The only seat I lose money in, is the Big Blind.
Number 3 is my real concern, because I can fix 1 and 2, but I think I could do with some advice on my third point.
I'd always just stubbornly thought I lost money in the BB because it's a forced bet, but this is obviously untrue because I am showing a profit from the SB.
I've looked at this over a fairly large sample, c. 45,000 hands, so I can't just label it down to coolers happening in this one position.
- Am I calling too many hands in the BB?
Possibly.
- Am I 3-betting too often?
Almost definitely, it is my standard reaction to fold mediocre hands to an EP / MP raise, but then convince myself ALL LP raises are steals, and I find myself re-raising, then firing out on the flop. This is only ever a costly practice.
So, any advice on the BB problems would be greatly received.
(Sorry it's such a long post, but I wanted to explain my position fully. Also, hopefully certain people will have got bored half way through and looked at another thread meaning there'll be no "fold more" posts. *Bracing myself for the first one*)
Thanks.
EDIT - Cash games, not STT / MTT
Comments
How much are you losing out of the BB? im losing 20bb/100 and i thought that was quite good, you must be playing 25nl or lower as im going to need proof if your winning out of the sb in higher stake games lol.
As for calling 3bets to hit sets, as you have found out this is massively unprofitable (when you are only 100bb deep and hu), in 3bet pots the biggest mistake i see at lower levels though is calling 3bets out of position, i will never call a 3bet out of position with 100bb stacks or lower in a hu pot.
I play $100NL, I play all my cash on another site for traffic reasons, and only play MTTs on sky.
I'm averaging approximately 1.1 PTBB/100 in all positions, slightly higher at 1.55 on the button, with 0.15 in the SB, and a loss of 0.24 in the big blind.
I understand a loss is often 'accepted' in the BB, but IF it's possible (which it naturally is for some players), I want to be able to do it!
As for the 3-betting part of your post, I definitely agree. It's just a shame it's taken me this long to look back at some stats to see this obvious flaw and try to put a stop to it. I think 4-betting some, and folding others needs to take priority over calling far too often.
Wow your stats look really weird to me, do you play with 100bb stacks or do you play a 20bb pro shortstack game? If your playing with 100bb stacks, whats your vpip and pfr? if i had to guess it would be 17/14.
Just to show you my stats to compare, im losing 10ptbb in the bb and winning 25ptbb on the button.
These programmes give you a slight edge and can help you multi table but they are better for fixing leaks in your game.
VPIP - 19.88
PFR - 14.33
Impressive estimation!
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Dohhh,
I just feel like the game plays SO much differently on here. I just can't adapt to the way the game is on here; I really wish I could as I feel I'd be so much more profitable.
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Back to the original question, however, is there a definitive agreement about how to play the BB?
The players with the biggest winrate play around 27/22 styles so i would open up to a 21/18 style and then add hands from there, the best way to do this is start playing more from the button as the blinds fold alot of the time and when they dont you still have position to take the pot down later.
***I've been on a put of a poor run the last couple of weeks or so, where I've been getting my money in good, but getting outdrawn. Obviously, this is always going to happen, so no complaints about variance because it'll even itself out soon enough.***
Too true sir.
***With these outdraws happening so often, I feel as though my play has declined. I'm now trying just to get down to showdown as cheaply as I can, which inevitably allows my opponent to catch up on the turn / river.***
But this my friend is actually tilt. Tilt comes in different forms. People seem to think tilt is when people go ape and throw crazy money at pots with air. However this type of tilt is normally caused by not playing within your bankroll but if it's because like you said that you keep get outdrawn then you need to go back to playing the 'A' game you where playing before your poor run.
It's all very well branding vpip/pfr's around but the bottom line is this. Say you do open up your range to 27/22 (oh for the record 27/22 is way too high) and you sit at a table with 32/5, 40/10, 30/20. You will be bust before you know it.
You must play according to the table and according to your image at that time of the next hand. You do not set out to be a vpip/pfr player.
With regards to your 3bets from the blind, How light does it get? It's fine to 3bet 67s, 78s, A5s etc but If it's against people who call 2 many 3bets then keep it towards KQ AJ etc.
Post more stats and we can help a bit more maybe.
Miss Chips, apart from you, where does my tilt come from?
Hey on a serious note though, .....
When you good/winning players.....Ms chips for example....
Say you have been having a rough time, cards hurting u etc....
Do u come away losing? or winning, but not as much as usual???? Really interestd in this, shud probably start a new discussion about it.....
"Ive had a nightmare month, running so bad"- does this mean u arent wnning as much as u shud, or ur actually losing money????
showing a profit form the small blind is a pretty good brag tbh and i dont think i have seen anyone have a profit in the BB over a very large samplesize, though 45k hands isnt huge sample as you will only have ~8k hands in the SB it seems from winrates that you arent positionally aware much at all as your wr is basically the same from EP - BTN.
most common leaks in blinds are calling too much and playing OOP which just sucks.
ms chips you say that you should play according to others at the table which is obv correct, but you also say 27/22 is too high which is so contradicitve. if the other players at the table are playing < 10vpip mass multitablers then you should probably be />50vpip
as you have a HUd you should decide whether & what hands to 3bet depending on their fold to 3bets. if they fold large amount you can probably 3b any 2 cards and be profitable if they hardly fold then you shouldnt be reraisng small pairs or suited connecters but big pairs & broadways so you can flop strong made hands and win lots of monies
I agree that you dont set out to be an exact vpip/pfr player but when you take every possible +ev edge possible then you play alot of hands.
A good example of this is a guy who plays around 50% of hands on stars at the 1000nl level and beats the game because they have a big skill advantage over the other players.
I also agree with you that when someone calls alot of 3bets you can start 3betting thinly for value with hands like kq etc but i would prefer not 3betting light with hands such as 76s and more with hands such as A6s, this is because suited connectors are more profitable to call as they work best in high stack to ratio pots and A6s is not strong enough to call and works well in 3bet pots as it has high card value.
He is trying to fix a leak in his game. Your advice is play looser against loose players. Very Good
To be playing profitably from all positions is almost impossible, and considering you are winning well from UTG/UTG+1, accept the trade-off for a 0.24 loss in the BB (which is so small that it blows my mind!)
What I would definitely focus on is improving your win rate from the button instead of from the BB. The BB relies on you hitting and winning smallish pots when you are out of position, where on the button you can win huge pots with air, much more difficult to win with air from the BB!
Your samplesize is not a great indicator, but when you get to say 150-200k it will become more clear about your playstyle.
Congratulations at playing poker better than most of the world!