Shoving UTG with 23o and no fold equity

MereNovice

On "The League" the week before last, an experienced player went all-in "under the gun" with 23o when he had such a small stack that it was impossible for the big blind to fold (unless he was asleep).
Mr. Giddins could find no explanation at the time.

I am always keen to play devil's advocate so I suggested the reason was that he stood to win a bigger pot than if he waited until the next hand, i.e. both of the blinds would be in the pot in addition to his own stack, at least.

Also, is 23 really any different to 85, for example, which is what he might get next hand.

What do you think?

I didn't create this as a poll because I'd rather see some debate about it rather than just a vote.





P.S. I've started this thread here so that it might generate some comment before tonight's show. It may get discussed on tonight's live broadcast so if you're a TV Tart like myself get posting!

Dazler

not worth it in my opinion id rather have 2 higher cards to up my chances of them calling with under cards if you even get 78 next hand they could be calling you with any hand lower so if you both dont hit at least you have a slight chance! with 23 your not going to win anything unless you hit and they dont. even if i have 2 blinds left id rather double up and get past the blind so ive got another round to be  dealt better cards and then push to try and double up again. I know they say you should shove blind when your that low but ive folded and then worked my way back up with better hands after words.

GREGHOGG

I didnt see the hand Mere, but...

my thoughts on what you have posted are...

1. Obviously we shouldnt get so low to reach this impossible dilemma

2. if we are prepared to shove it in with 23 here, why did we get so low in the first place..? can only think we had an accident in the same round vs someone with a similar stack and got left with the small change...

3. i believe it is better to wait for the big blind, because you are likley to get a much better hand than 23, and you may also get it vs one opponant which would be more favourable imo.

4 you make the point that you want to get it in vs three or four players to win a bigger pot. im not sure about this, because if this is for my tournament i would rather get it in vs one opponant and then shove on the next button or sb.


hoggers

MereNovice

I can't remember seeing how he got in that position but not let's not get side-tracked by that. Let's assume that he lost a big pot on the previous hand.

I also can't remember the exact stack sizes but let's assume that the BB is 1000 and he has 1700 chips.

So, if he waits for the next hand and is HU against the SB, he will have 3400 chips IF he wins.
If he wins this hand against the BB, he will have at least 3900 chips.

It doesn't seem like many more chips but it might make a difference.

I have no strong feelings either way.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Shoving UTG with 23o and no fold equity:

I can't remember seeing how he got in that position but not let's not get side-tracked by that. Let's assume that he lost a big pot on the previous hand. I also can't remember the exact stack sizes but let's assume that the BB is 1000 and he has 1700 chips. So, if he waits for the next hand and is HU against the SB, he will have 3400 chips IF he wins. If he wins this hand against the BB, he will have at least 3900 chips. It doesn't seem like many more chips but it might make a difference. I have no strong feelings either way.
Posted by MereNovice

now its getting far too mathmatical for me Vince sorry...

if its me and im tilting i shove it in with atc in that spot without thinking

if im not tilting, i fold and hope for a big blind special

im not even sure if one of your mathmatical equasions with +ev stuff etc, could answer this question (although it probably could i just wont understand it!), and although its an interesting and rare spot to find oneself in, i think that the "side tracked" issue is much more important here..

jmo, hoggers

beaneh

In Response to Re: Shoving UTG with 23o and no fold equity:

I can't remember seeing how he got in that position but not let's not get side-tracked by that. Let's assume that he lost a big pot on the previous hand. I also can't remember the exact stack sizes but let's assume that the BB is 1000 and he has 1700 chips. So, if he waits for the next hand and is HU against the SB, he will have 3400 chips IF he wins. If he wins this hand against the BB, he will have at least 3900 chips. It doesn't seem like many more chips but it might make a difference. I have no strong feelings either way.
Posted by MereNovice

go all in with any two cards ez peazy

could have just lost a flip or big pot to be down to 1.5 bbs.

it's slightly different on sky in that there are no antes. but at least we can deffo with the 1500 out there rather than be in the bb and there just be 500 out there that isn't ours.

elsadog

UTG maximises the potential pot. Shoving with any two is generally seen as the thing to do when severly short stacked so what better time to do it than with all players potentially in the pot and including the SB and BB.

When things get really dire, pick the pot to enter not the hand to go in with.

darich

Personally I'd rather shove utg than wait for the big blind, because you can win the small and big blinds, rather than purely winning your bb back if you wait. 23 o is at least connecting and I'm so short ideally I'd want to be called in as many spots as possible.

Talon

  When you have no fold equity the best you can hope for is to have live cards to play with. With 23o you maximise your chances of the cards being live and therefore only about a 2 to 1 dog to win against a sole opponent. The standard mistake a lot of people make when short is to shove with the first ace they find and will very often find themselves called by a dominating hand. As soon as we become card dependant for our shoving range when short we are in a world of trouble. Also as soon as we get that low we have to get it allin the first hand possible and pray to the poker gods

MereNovice

I think the live cards aspect is a bit of a red herring.
Admittedly if anyone not in the blinds gets involved they are unlikely to hold a 2 or 3.
However, since the BB will definitely call it is his hand that is most relevant and he is as likely to have a 2 or 3 in his hand as any other card (discounting the fact that it rather less likely since you have one of each in your hand which is an equal argument for any cards the UTG player holds).

DAVEYZZ

i dont mind the shove here,i would rather be in a 4 way pot with 23 than heads up with ak etc,at least if if you do get lucky then you quadruple up.....

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Shoving UTG with 23o and no fold equity:

  When you have no fold equity the best you can hope for is to have live cards to play with. With 23o you maximise your chances of the cards being live and therefore only about a 2 to 1 dog to win against a sole opponent. The standard mistake a lot of people make when short is to shove with the first ace they find and will very often find themselves called by a dominating hand. As soon as we become card dependant for our shoving range when short we are in a world of trouble. Also as soon as we get that low we have to get it allin the first hand possible and pray to the poker gods
Posted by Talon

that is not a mistake

if u get looked up by 2 paint cards for example, you're in front, if u get looked up by most pairs u have 1 over and the small pairs 2 overs.

id rather run Ax into any of those hands than 67s for example.

if you were to follow the theory then you would neva push with hands like KJ, KT .... incase you run into AK, KQ etc... and so on and so on