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Being put to the test

TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
This hand was one of the toughest spots I've been in for a while.  Before making my finally action on the river the time bar was around 3/4 of the way down which is very rare for me as I normally already have my river decisions for every possible river card and action in my mind.  As you can tell by some of the names this was a lively table.  The villain hasn't been at the table too long but hasn't been shy pushing his chips about.  I haven't seen any of his cards go to showdown and I haven't played him before.  Then this hand crept up on me.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
offshoot Small blind  £1.00 £1.00 £561.80
LEE346 Big blind  £2.00 £3.00 £115.45
  Your hole cards
  • 2
  • 2
     
VillainCall  £2.00 £5.00 £192.20
TommyD Call  £2.00 £7.00 £331.95
SEPPY808 Call  £2.00 £9.00 £840.58
BrownnDog Fold     
offshoot Fold     
LEE346 Check     
Flop
   
  • 9
  • 2
  • Q
     
LEE346 Check     
Villain Bet  £2.00 £11.00 £190.20
TommyD Raise  £10.00 £21.00 £321.95
SEPPY808 Fold     
LEE346 Fold     
Villain Call  £8.00 £29.00 £182.20
Turn
   
  • 6
     
Villain Bet  £29.00 £58.00 £153.20
TommyD Call  £29.00 £87.00 £292.95
River
   
  • 10
     
Villain All-in  £153.20 £240.20 £0.00
TommyD ????    
  
   
      
      
To help set the scene, the Villain made the turn bet quickly and the river bet was an insta-shove.  Also every single preflop raise I made was flatted by the player behind me (not the villain)

How do you think of the hand as played?  What hand do you put the villain on?  What would you do?

Comments

  • spornybolspornybol Member Posts: 8,212
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Being put to the test:
    This hand was one of the toughest spots I've been in for a while.  Before making my finally action on the river the time bar was around 3/4 of the way down which is very rare for me as I normally already have my river decisions for every possible river card and action in my mind.  As you can tell by some of the names this was a lively table.  The villain hasn't been at the table too long but hasn't been shy pushing his chips about.  I haven't seen any of his cards go to showdown and I haven't played him before.  Then this hand crept up on me. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance offshoot Small blind   £1.00 £1.00 £561.80 LEE346 Big blind   £2.00 £3.00 £115.45   Your hole cards 2 2       Villain Call   £2.00 £5.00 £192.20 TommyD Call   £2.00 £7.00 £331.95 SEPPY808 Call   £2.00 £9.00 £840.58 BrownnDog Fold         offshoot Fold         LEE346 Check         Flop     9 2 Q       LEE346 Check         Villain  Bet   £2.00 £11.00 £190.20 TommyD Raise   £10.00 £21.00 £321.95 SEPPY808 Fold         LEE346 Fold         Villain  Call   £8.00 £29.00 £182.20 Turn     6       Villain  Bet   £29.00 £58.00 £153.20 TommyD Call   £29.00 £87.00 £292.95 River     10       Villain  All-in   £153.20 £240.20 £0.00 TommyD ????                                           To help set the scene, the Villain made the turn bet quickly and the river bet was an insta-shove.  Also every single preflop raise I made was flatted by the player behind me (not the villain) How do you think of the hand as played?  What hand do you put the villain on?  What would you do?
    Posted by TommyD
    just lookin at it j k either on dimond and he ended up strate ???
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2010
    I'm no expert but I personally would have raised big on the turn as the 6 of clubs changes nothing and surely you know you have the best hand now only losing to set of queens, 6's or flopped flush, plus you want to get money in aswell.
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    I'm no expert but I personally would have raised big on the turn as the 6 of clubs changes nothing and surely you know you have the best hand now only losing to set of queens, 6's or flopped flush, plus you want to get money in aswell.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    Thanks for the reply.  If you think I'm ahead on the turn what are you putting the Villain on to min bet/flat the flop and to lead out with a pot on the turn?
  • goodylad21goodylad21 Member Posts: 693
    edited July 2010
    WWW.Confused.com !!!!

    Been starring at this hand for the last 10 mins & am still none of the wiser, it does not make sense !!

    I would really struggle to call the river bet shove though & would reluctantly put it down....I think lol (villain dependant)

    My head hurts Tommy - I reckon you called FWIW !
  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    you need to raise pre flop, dont like the overlimp too much.

    I think the flop was played fine, when you re raise him on the flop your repping sets and flushes. Villian then donks leads the turn, you have showed him that you are very strong, yet he still decides to donk lead, W/O reads I would just call the turn bet hoping to boat up. River he over bets the pot, I think more often then not your behind, situations like this are were notes are players are needed. I'd sigh then fold.

    the only hands I see you beating are bluffs at this point, fd hit on the flop, and the striaght come in on the river.
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    WWW.Confused.com !!!! Been starring at this hand for the last 10 mins & am still none of the wiser, it does not make sense !! I would really struggle to call the river bet shove though & would reluctantly put it down....I think lol (villain dependant) My head hurts Tommy - I reckon you called FWIW !
    Posted by goodylad21
    You should of seen my face as the timer was ticking down, talk about head hurting.  Indeed I felt the villains play was confusing which just added to the problem.
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    you need to raise pre flop, dont like the overlimp too much. I think the flop was played fine, when you re raise him on the flop your repping sets and flushes. Villian then donks leads the turn, you have showed him that you are very strong, yet he still decides to donk lead, W/O reads I would just call the turn bet hoping to boat up. River he over bets the pot, I think more often then not your behind, situations like this are were notes are players are needed. I'd sigh then fold. the only hands I see you beating are bluffs at this point, fd hit on the flop, and the striaght come in on the river.
    Posted by harvey23

    Raising preflop achieves absolutely nothing.  As stated in the OP the person behind me has flatted every single raise I have made to this point.  I also have a limper before me.  Raising with 22 here reopens the betting for the UTG limper.  What if he repops?  I have to fold before seeing a flop.  What if there's heavy action behind me?  I have to fold.  I'm known by at least three of the players at the table to be an aggro player and all three are capable of three betting my raise with air, then I either fold away the dead money or play a decent size pot OOP with 22.  I'm sorry but raising in this spot is so -ev on this table.  Joining the first limper into the pot will encourage light calls behind and give me value to set mine.


  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    so your saying every time you raised you got called by the person behind you? even more reason to raise pre with 22. If the flop comes Axx or Kxx, you can rep TP since you raised pre, and the hand range of the caller is so wide, that he is going to fold enough to make that a profitable play. Were by limping, you cant really rep strong top pair hands on a A,K,Q high boards, so your already on the back foot and one less way to win the pot.


    Any decent player at the table can see your hand for what it is, some sort of SC or low PP, perhaps Ax suited depending on your image. I have not played this high limit on sky, but if I was at your table I would just raise you so much in postion by like 6bb with any Ax or Kx suited, and when called I guess I would take down the pot soo much since your not going to hit your set often enough, and your range is so narrow to me.

    If he repops you, unless its a min raise, you fold, and move on, make a note that the player does this. Im not saying limping is the wrost play, but I would raise to Isolate the UTG limper who looks like a weak player since they have opened limped UTG. I expect to win the pot on any boardway flop, were i'd rep any AKQJ or when i hit my set.

    your 150bb deep with seppy88 as well, so I like to get a bit more money in pre, for the times you hit your set and win a bigger pot.
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test : Thanks for the reply.  If you think I'm ahead on the turn what are you putting the Villain on to min bet/flat the flop and to lead out with a pot on the turn?
    Posted by TommyD
    Well he's limped UTG so I find it hard to have him on 99 or QQ, if he has 66 then too bad. The pot bet on turn is very confusing I guess he could have flopped flush and wants to get the money in here but I find it mega hard to put somene on flopped flush maybe you can. The 10 river lets KJ get there, but very strange way to play KJ if he has, and if he was drawing to a gutshot even more reason to charge him on turn. Like I say you maybe know this guy better than I do but just how I play it lol.
  • goodylad21goodylad21 Member Posts: 693
    edited July 2010
    Seems to be the new fashion on SKY though to over bet/shove the river when they have the goods....I so hope you folded !!!

    I would put him on a flopped ikle flush, rather that or he's a maniac...Still not sure tho lol
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    so your saying every time you raised you got called by the person behind you? even more reason to raise pre with 22. If the flop comes Axx or Kxx, you can rep TP since you raised pre, and the hand range of the caller is so wide, that he is going to fold enough to make that a profitable play. Were by limping, you cant really rep strong top pair hands on a A,K,Q high boards, so your already on the back foot and one less way to win the pot. Any decent player at the table can see your hand for what it is, some sort of SC or low PP, perhaps Ax suited depending on your image. I have not played this high limit on sky, but if I was at your table I would just raise you so much in positron by like 6bb with any Ax or Kx suited, and when called I guess I would take down the pot soo much since your not going to hit your set often enough, and your range is so narrow to me. If he repops you, unless its a min raise, you fold, and move on, make a note that the player does this. Im not saying limping is the wrost play, but I would raise to Isolate the UTG limper who looks like a weak player since they have opened limped UTG. I expect to win the pot on any boardway flop, were i'd rep any AKQJ or when i hit my set. your 150bb deep with seppy88 as well, so I like to get a bit more money in pre, for the times you hit your set and win a bigger pot.
    Posted by harvey23

    I understand where you are coming from but I think you missing some crucial points.  Sets are massive in a cash game but they need to have an opponent to have a piece to get paid.  Why the blazes do I want to isolate the limper?  I want everyone to flat, this gives me my odds plus massive implied odds for hitting my set.  I understand all about taking the initiative in the hand to rep various holdings down the streets, but you can turn ATC into a bluff, why do it with this one and ruin an opportunity to double my stack?

    With regards to my range, I would argue it is much wider that the narrow range you have said.  I know you're not used to playing higher levels, but an open limper, in this case the villain, is a green light for all sorts of marginal trash to call at this level.

    The player behind me has shown himself to have a wide calling range through the streets.  Say I raised here and he flats like every time before.  The flop comes down AT8 rainbow.  I c-bet to rep an AK/AQ type holding as you suggested and he flats again.  He could be flatting me with AK/AQ, AT, JT, T9, J9, sets etc, so after the flop flat I have no idea if he's floating, calling light or has the goods and therefore I have no idea if I should fire a second bullet (and before you say I should shut down, believe me, at these levels you need to be ready to fire three to four bullets).  I fire a second bullet and get another flat suddenly a significant portion of my stack is in the middle and I have to bet to win in most cases.  Remember, I'm OOP on this guy.

    Anyway, when I posted this I was really hoping not to focus on the preflop action as it is by far the most boring of what I consider an interesting hand.  However thank you for your input Harvie, I can see exactly where you are coming from and practice much of what you have said (especially in unopened pots which sadly this isn't).  Question to you Harvie, put the villain on an exact hand.  You're in my seat and you need a hand to put him on that makes sense before you can call or fold, what is that hand?

  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test : Well he's limped UTG so I find it hard to have him on 99 or QQ, if he has 66 then too bad. The pot bet on turn is very confusing I guess he could have flopped flush and wants to get the money in here but I find it mega hard to put somene on flopped flush maybe you can. The 10 river lets KJ get there, but very strange way to play KJ if he has, and if he was drawing to a gutshot even more reason to charge him on turn. Like I say you maybe know this guy better than I do but just how I play it lol.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    Hey Dude

    To be completely honest my call on the turn was pure pot control.  I had been somewhat flummoxed by his flop to turn play.  A min bet/flat to a just under pot bet turning into a pot bet against the raiser range a whole heap of alarm bells in my head.  Strangely I would have been considering the fold on the turn a lot more if the board was rainbow, he's shown so much strength (albeit in a wonky fashion) on a rainbow board I would really be starting to think I was in a set over set situation.  If he's flopped the flush here I can still improve with a fair number of cards, if he's flopped the set I'm dead to one miracle.
  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Being put to the test:
    Question to you Harvie, put the villain on an exact hand.  You're in my seat and you need a hand to put him on that makes sense before you can call or fold, what is that hand?
    Posted by TommyD
    is this by the river? I cant put him on an exact hand, but as for ranges, and they way he played it, weighted mostly towards sets and flushes, with very small percentage of bluffs. like 88 or something with a FD which they didnt know how to play.
  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited July 2010
    Ok, time for the rest of the hand I think.  If you still want to answer the original post and have only just seen this thread I suggest you answer now before reading on :)








    I love this game, so far no one has put the villain on the hand I eventually put him on or the hand he actually had (yup, got it wrong, well half wrong and half right, depending on your outlook).

    Going back through the hand I became sure he was trapping me on the flop, but had turned his hand into a bluff by the river.  I discounted the rivered straight immediately, his shove on the river was far to quick for him to have realised he hit his hand and then thinking of how to get paid.  All signs pointed to the fact he had already decided to shove the river before seeing the card.  My major worry was the over set rather than the flush but every bit of his play was like he wasn't scared that I had the Ace of diamonds in my hand.  He would of probably re-raised the flop if he had me on the bare Ace of Diamonds.  Why would he insta shove of the river without giving himself to check for a river diamond?  Why would he shove a non diamond river at all if he thought there was a chance I had it and would check to me to bluff my stack off on a busted draw?  The only conclusion I could come to was that he had the Ace of diamonds.  So now I was down to a flopped nut flush or pocket aces (with the A of diamonds) he had limped in with UTG hoping for a raise behind and not getting it.  I decided the river shove was an overbet for value and was a made hand turned into a bluff (which would have included over sets the way it was played IMO).  So being sure of these two points and beating all non-nut flush A(d) hands I made the call thinking I was up against Aces.  And like I say, I was half right, or half wrong.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    offshoot Small blind  £1.00 £1.00 £561.80
    LEE346 Big blind  £2.00 £3.00 £115.45
      Your hole cards
    • 2
    • 2
         
    Villain Call  £2.00 £5.00 £192.20
    TommyD Call  £2.00 £7.00 £331.95
    SEPPY808 Call  £2.00 £9.00 £840.58
    BrownnDog Fold     
    offshoot Fold     
    LEE346 Check     
    Flop
       
    • 9
    • 2
    • Q
         
    LEE346 Check     
    Villain Bet  £2.00 £11.00 £190.20
    TommyD Raise  £10.00 £21.00 £321.95
    SEPPY808 Fold     
    LEE346 Fold     
    Villain Call  £8.00 £29.00 £182.20
    Turn
       
    • 6
         
    Villain Bet  £29.00 £58.00 £153.20
    TommyD Call  £29.00 £87.00 £292.95
    River
       
    • 10
         
    Villain All-in  £153.20 £240.20 £0.00
    TommyD Call  £153.20 £393.40 £139.75
    Villain Show
    • A
    • Q
       
    TommyD Show
    • 2
    • 2
       
    TommyD Win Three 2s £391.60  £531.35
    Feel free to comment on you thoughts of my thinking and any other opinions of the hand.  Great debate so far guys, this is what the Clinic is for :)
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    Raise pre, raise more on flop raise turn to get it in. I most likely fold river as played but having posted the results already you may well ruin any later replies.
  • barnsiebarnsie Member Posts: 496
    edited July 2010
    hard hand to understand though pretty sure i no the oppo from that bet size on river

    on that table im still raising pre if you are aware the regs are capable of 3 betting light to take it away whats wrong with a 4 bet in return?
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