Big draws in cash games.

DOHHHHHHH

Recently in the clinic, loads of new theories (new to me) have come up, especially about betting hands for value, and calling with mediocre hands rather than raising, thus allowing weaker hands to continue to bet down the streets.

Just watching a game a min ago, I do it quite abit and try to put players on hands.

Im just wondering, how to play massive draws on the turn, taking the above into consideration.

The idea is....

1) Obviously fold if your opponent has a better hand and wont fold.

-2) Bet/raise if you have a weaker hand than your opponent, but believe your opponent will fold.

3) to bet with the better hands, if you feel your opponent has a weaker hand, and will call.

4) If you believe your opponent betting into you has a weaker hand, but will fold to a raise, you should just call.

Hypothetical hand...

£1/£2 cash

sb - £200
bb- £200


1/2, action folded round to the sb who is a tight aggressive player, who raises to £7.

Big blind defends with 78 of diamonds.

Flop 2 - 6 - k with 2 diamonds.

SB - bets £9, called by bb, pot now £32.

The turn brings a blank 9. (edited - thanx Ao8's!)

How would you react in the big blind, if

A) the small blind bets £28
the small blind checks?

What Im trying to get at is how do you value this hand? Its obviously a massive draw...but only 8 high, with a pot as small as 16 big blinds, and each player has 92 bb's behind.

How do you approach the turn in relation to 1,2,3 and 4 above?

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Big draws in cash games.:

Recently in the clinic, loads of new theories (new to me) have come up, especially about betting hands for value, and calling with mediocre hands rather than raising, thus allowing weaker hands to continue to bet down the streets. Just watching a game a min ago, I do it quite abit and try to put players on hands. Im just wondering, how to play massive draws on the turn, taking the above into consideration. The idea is.... 1) Obviously fold if your opponent has a better hand and wont fold. -2) Bet/raise if you have a weaker hand than your opponent, but believe your opponent will fold. 3) to bet with the better hands, if you feel your opponent has a weaker hand, and will call. 4) If you believe your opponent betting into you has a weaker hand, but will fold to a raise, you should just call. Hypothetical hand... £1/£2 cash sb - £200 bb- £200 1/2, action folded round to the sb who is a tight aggressive player, who raises to £7. Big blind defends with 78 of diamonds. Flop 2 - 6 - k with 2 diamonds. SB - bets £9, called by bb, pot now £32. The turn brings the 9 of diamonds. How would you react in the big blind, if A) the small blind bets £28 the small blind checks? What Im trying to get at is how do you value this hand? Its obviously a massive draw...but only 8 high, with a pot as small as 16 big blinds, and each player has 92 bb's behind. How do you approach the turn in relation to 1,2,3 and 4 above?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Would you class this as a massive draw or a made hand that has a redraw to the absolute nuts? nit sure if in the scenario you were meaning to have the BB hold a made flush with a draw to the srt8 flush Dohhh or if at this point you were looking for them to have 6 7 8 9 of diamonds but no made hand? Not meaning to call you into question it's just that it's probably a diff answer if you have a made flush and are drawing to the nuts than it is to have the up & down nut draw but with no made hand

DOHHHHHHH

Ooooooops, cheerz m8 I did read it through before clicking subit honest!

The idea was floppin a flush draw and turning a straight draw to go with it -
 
What hands that are realistically in the villains range do I want to fold out at this point?
Which ones, if any, do I want to call me?

The flush draw is obviously in the villains range here too, so wud I bet knowing that I have 1 more shot on the river should the river be a brick?

His range is pretty wide from the small blind......maybe the question is too broad to get proper answers too, its so hard for me to write what Im thinking mainly because im not 100% confident on the basic theories/prinicpals themselves yet, so applying them is difficult), a skype strategy session or something wud be ideal.

yb

Ok first of all you need to know the reason why you're betting/raising, which you seem to be unsure of if you don't know whether you want a call or not. If the villain checks the turn and we bet we are bluffing (albeit with a very good draw), so the best thing to happen from our point of view is him to fold. You asked if we would ever want a call - only really if he has a strong enough hand to also call a fairly big bet by us on the river should we hit our draw, because then we would be getting good implied odds. But the point is if he has got a hand this strong he will almost certainly be betting the turn also so we probably aren't getting paid if we make our hand, therefore we want a fold.

As for playing big draws generally it depends on so many different things (position, stack sizes, villain etc) so its quite a broad question to answer. As for the hand in the example, it depends on the history we have with the villain first of all, but I think calling the flop with a draw in position is fine. Part of why we can call rather than raise is that it allows us to win the hand without hitting if our opponent shows weakness along later streets (eg. by checking the turn) by betting ourselves. I think if he had a K he would be firing on the turn also, so by checking we can represent it, especially if you would play KQ/KJ etc the same way. If we got called I think his range is made up of mostly middle pair type hands (because if he had a hand like AdXd I would expect him to double-barrel, and you haven't said but if the K was a diamond that takes away a lot of flush draws also). So on this basis I would value bet if we hit and value bluff most rivers if we miss - though this is villain dependent on whether he would be folding hands like JJ/TT etc on the river. OOP its different as its very hard for us to win the hand by flatting on the flop unless we hit, so I'd be raising on the flop with draws a lot more often.

If he bets £28 we are getting odds to call to see if we can hit without even thinking about implied odds, and I would just call because if we raise I can't see what we're repping (apart from maybe 99). If the river is a blank and he checks it, then again its villain dependent about whether to try to steal the pot - unless he has a history of 2-barrel bluffing quite a lot then it's not very +EV imo as quite a lot of players will call light here putting you on the busted flush draw.

Hope some of this makes sense!!!

beaneh

In Response to Big draws in cash games.:

Recently in the clinic, loads of new theories (new to me) have come up, especially about betting hands for value, and calling with mediocre hands rather than raising, thus allowing weaker hands to continue to bet down the streets. Just watching a game a min ago, I do it quite abit and try to put players on hands. Im just wondering, how to play massive draws on the turn, taking the above into consideration. The idea is.... 1) Obviously fold if your opponent has a better hand and wont fold. -2) Bet/raise if you have a weaker hand than your opponent, but believe your opponent will fold. 3) to bet with the better hands, if you feel your opponent has a weaker hand, and will call. 4) If you believe your opponent betting into you has a weaker hand, but will fold to a raise, you should just call. Hypothetical hand... £1/£2 cash sb - £200 bb- £200 1/2, action folded round to the sb who is a tight aggressive player, who raises to £7. Big blind defends with 78 of diamonds. Flop 2 - 6 - k with 2 diamonds. SB - bets £9, called by bb, pot now £32. The turn brings a blank 9. (edited - thanx Ao8's!) How would you react in the big blind, if A) the small blind bets £28 the small blind checks? What Im trying to get at is how do you value this hand? Its obviously a massive draw...but only 8 high, with a pot as small as 16 big blinds, and each player has 92 bb's behind. How do you approach the turn in relation to 1,2,3 and 4 above?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

You value this draw relative to the equity it has against the whole of your opponents range that they'd play in this way.

It's called ranges and maths.

LOL_RAISE

when villain bets twice his range is Kx+ and Ax flush draws (plus few weaker FD's) Kx isnt folding because we rep 99 and K9s and we have lots and lots of equity so we call turn. when he checks turn he is almost always c/fing air or c/cing with pairs < Kx so i would be betting turn and betting river. checking back 7,8 river if dont have any great read on opponent