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Raise or Shove?

Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
loonytoons Small blind  400.00 400.00 28833.75
BOYDID Big blind  800.00 1200.00 7800.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • A
     
Dudeskin8 All-in  12590.00 13790.00 0.00
jamieboy09 Call  12590.00 26380.00 20575.00
-Typhoon- Fold     
dav1964 Fold     
loonytoons Fold     
BOYDID Fold    
I have 15 BB's left behind, am utg with AK, this is a snap all-in for me with this stack and hand, but just wanted to know if this is too risky and if a raise is the better option up to say 2300 or so ?
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  • luvBWFCluvBWFC Member Posts: 763
    edited July 2010
    Are you blind stealing or would you like a double-up? I think you have enough to put a standard raise in and see what develops, knowing that you are probably calling anyone who shoves behind you. What do you know about the table? Is it loose/tight etc Also what type of tournament is it?
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    What stage of the tourney was it? pre-bubble or in the money

    I do think All in is a bit risky here when you have 15BB, maybe raise 3.5 x blind to save getting commited here and then go from there. i think it depends on your position and whether your in the money here though and if below average stack and in the money dont blame the all in here. If you are above average or i would certainly try using your stack by raising and go from there as you dont need to commit so much as your in good position and just need to pick your spots TMTPW(thats my two pennies worth :o) )
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    i dont play donkments often, but standard, nicehand
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  • Mr_MiyagiMr_Miyagi Member Posts: 2,031
    edited July 2010

    make it 3k to go.

    if dav1964 gets involved fold.

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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    i dont play donkments often, but standard, nicehand
    Posted by harvey23
    I wouldn't jump in and say nice hand here as 6 handed your only getting called with those blinds and chipstacks with a) Made hand, possibly a high pocket hand so not worth the risk unless as i have stated they were below average chip count and Bubble not burst b) they could have AK also but i doubt someone would commit this much at this stage, although you are wating for a premium to hit here do think you need to try to use your chipstack here to avoid losing a race or even getting in one, even if a hand like like KQ or K10 call you which you have pretty much dominated at this stage people are less likely to call with junk

    so my advice is use your stack even if its 3 x bet so you are controlling the pot and can either represnt flop or if completely miss check/fold and you still have 10-11 BB which is enough to play around with
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    make it 3k to go. if dav1964 gets involved fold.
    Posted by Mr_Miyagi
    you cant raise it to 3k then fold to a shove, AK equity wise will be a fav vs Villian shoving range.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

     159,244,272  games     0.109 secs     1,460,956,623  games/sec

    Board:
    Dead: 

        equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
    Hand 0:     57.968%      52.50%     05.46%           83610584       8699605.00   { AsKc }
    Hand 1:     42.032%      36.57%     05.46%           58234478       8699605.00   { 88+, AJs+, KJs+, AJo+, KJo+ }



    SNAP bet/call a shove imo.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove? : you cant raise it to 3k then fold to a shove, AK equity wise will be a fav vs Villian shoving range. Text results appended to pokerstove.txt  159,244,272  games     0.109 secs     1,460,956,623  games/sec Board: Dead:      equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    Hand 0:     57.968%      52.50%     05.46%           83610584       8699605.00   { AsKc } Hand 1:     42.032%      36.57%     05.46%           58234478       8699605.00   { 88+, AJs+, KJs+, AJo+, KJo+ } SNAP bet/call a shove imo.
    Posted by harvey23
    Maybe but they could have any pair i'd say 10+ which you dont want to be racing against even if you have good equity for the call

    I'd personally put the villain on at least Queens here, maybe kings or aces which either takes some of your outs away and these hands you dont want to be up against. true everyone could have folded but i think too big a risk pre flop after all is just Ace high. i nice sized raise would have done the job here and you wouldn't have to commit. although depending on person shoving on you maybe worth a call but all in pre i think is bad in the above position
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    Ive played with alot of these opponents your up against here, which i shouldnt know lol. But yea i do the same shove probably.
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove? : Maybe but they could have any pair i'd say 10+ which you dont want to be racing against even if you have good equity for the call I'd personally put the villain on at least Queens here, maybe kings or aces which either takes some of your outs away and these hands you dont want to be up against. true everyone could have folded but i think too big a risk pre flop after all is just Ace high. i nice sized raise would have done the job here and you wouldn't have to commit. although depending on person shoving on you maybe worth a call but all in pre i think is bad in the above position
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    if they have AA KK GG to them you have 15bb left and your in the BB next. What situation are we waiting for AA vs KK Vs KK 3 way and we hold AA.

    We need to get this in now.

    bet folding AK with 15bb 6 handed is terrible, and folding pre is terrible, you just need to get this in. its a donkament your going to be in many flips along the way. You cant bet fold 3bb-4bb and fold to a shove, because your in the BB next and you will have around 9bb left.


    the amount of timse your going to get a walk and everyone folds, or when you get called and they show PP below QQ and wrose Ax hands or Kq etc, makes this play EV+, anyone who says you should fold here is wrong.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    I'll disagree on this one harvey, sorry to say but i do rate my MTT game 100x better then my cash would be interested to see what some of the better players(no offence other good players) would have to say
    personally i would not shove due to risk/reward i have put maybe that you call a shove but no need to go all in!

    also you can make a laydown here if you pick up a good read but that is mainly based on the player. however i do think its a bad all in, not the worst though
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    I'll disagree on this one harvey, sorry to say but i do rate my MTT game 100x better then my cash would be interested to see what some of the better players(no offence other good players) would have to say personally i would not shove due to risk/reward i have put maybe that you call a shove but no need to go all in! also you can make a laydown here if you pick up a good read but that is mainly based on the player. however i do think its a bad all in, not the worst though
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    the open shove yeah not great and OP would prob make a greater expecation in the long run by rasing 3bb-4bb by keep in weaker hands for sure. On the Other hand he does not have a Made hand, they have A high, and most likely  will play this hand OOP, so I see points for shoving. by shoving UTG it also under reps his hand some what, as in donkments you often see shortstacks shove UTG with margial holdings like small PP and weak Ax type hands.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Raise or Shove?:
    loonytoons Small blind   400.00 400.00 28833.75 BOYDID Big blind   800.00 1200.00 7800.00   Your hole cards K A       Dudeskin8 All-in   12590.00 13790.00 0.00 jamieboy09 Call   12590.00 26380.00 20575.00 -Typhoon- Fold         dav1964 Fold         loonytoons Fold         BOYDID Fold       I have 15 BB's left behind, am utg with AK, this is a snap all-in for me with this stack and hand, but just wanted to know if this is too risky and if a raise is the better option up to say 2300 or so ?
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    If you've been shoving a lot then fine, if not i'd make it 1800 and call a shove 100% of the time.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Raise or Shove?:
    I'll disagree on this one harvey, sorry to say but i do rate my MTT game 100x better then my cash would be interested to see what some of the better players(no offence other good players) would have to say personally i would not shove due to risk/reward i have put maybe that you call a shove but no need to go all in! also you can make a laydown here if you pick up a good read but that is mainly based on the player. however i do think its a bad all in, not the worst though
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN

    don't ever fold Ak with 15 bb's unless the oppos hand becomes exposed as KK+.

    I prefer raise call to open shove but w/e small difference.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2010
    Well it was a £2.20 deepstack so I gess qualifies as a donkament. There were 31 left 10 paid so way off the money. The main reason I open shoved was I hate trying to play poker with a <15 BB's stack as if I raise 2-3 times then miss the flop it becomes very hard to play as any c-bet is gonna be a big portion of my stack so isn't really possible.

    Also into the blinds next two hands so further losses coming. Another reason I favour this move as there are some players who are capable of calling off with AQ especially if it's sooted so I want them to think I'm weak with maybe a small pair. Also I'm only really dead against AA, even KK I'm like 30%, plus if it is a pair that calls I am looking for a double up so that would be fine by me but ofcourse everyone folding is a high possibility aswell.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    Due to it being DS find this even more of an odd all in, although i do understand where your coming from even more reason to raise, i would 4 bet and maybe crying call iff someone goes over the top

    my main concern is not that someone has you beat , 1) putting everything in on essentially a flip
    2) also risk/reward dont think its worth putting all those chips in one go, dont mind if calling the shove at this level though tbh so not as terrible as i thought originally but still would be raising with the intention to call/re-raise all in
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    ^^^^^^^
    doesnt make sense the last bit, basically as played would raise, if re-raised all in call or if re raised then shove
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  • bornabladebornablade Member Posts: 736
    edited July 2010

    My opinion for what it's worth.

    I would be raising to 3 - 3.5k from that spot. If there's a re-shove I am insta-calling. No way am I putting AK down with />15bb left pre. Post flop if I've missed and know the players I'm with (more than likely in DS) and think an all in shove will take it down then obv I'm shoving. If I hit the flop then it's gonna be either check raise all in or just ship the rest in.

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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2010
    So, many are saying raise and then call the shove if it comes, in this instance isn't a shove pre just more favorable as it cuts out the murky grey area of should I call off with Ace high ?
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2010
    Another example.
    Dudeskin8 Small blind  400.00 400.00 12602.50
    lucky77777 Big blind  800.00 1200.00 11500.00
      Your hole cards
    • 9
    • 9
    		     
    bazza999 Fold     
    Kiwini4u Fold     
    murphy06 Call  800.00 2000.00 17380.00
    Dudeskin8 All-in  12602.50 14602.50 0.00
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited July 2010
    again i would raise but overbet by you even more so with 9s, i would 3-4 times raise if they shove fold, if they call try to figure out what ranges you would have them on and go from there
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