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PLO got very lucky advice please

The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
xSmall blind  10.00 10.00 2240.00
The_Don90 Big blind  20.00 30.00 1920.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • J
  • J
  • 7
     
Aj_Hans Fold     
strobe Fold     
RUGRATS Call  20.00 50.00 1880.00
jabbawokki Call  20.00 70.00 1930.00
xRaise  30.00 100.00 2210.00
The_Don90 Raise  80.00 180.00 1840.00
RUGRATS Call  80.00 260.00 1800.00
jabbawokki Fold     
xRaise  300.00 560.00 1910.00
The_Don90 Call  240.00 800.00 1600.00
RUGRATS Fold     
Flop
   
  • Q
  • Q
  • 10
     
xBet  800.00 1600.00 1110.00
The_Don90 All-in  1600.00 3200.00 0.00
xAll-in  1110.00 4310.00 0.00
xUnmatched bet  310.00 4000.00 310.00
xShow
  • 2
  • K
  • 9
  • A
   
The_Don90 Show
  • Q
  • J
  • J
  • 7
   
Turn
   
  • 3
     
River
   
  • J
     
The_Don90 Win Full House, Queens and Jacks 4000.00  4000.00
Ok so i was never behind, and had almost all my opponents outs covered. But i get a sence i got lucky here, playing PLO for the first time, i usually play NLO. Felt like a bit of an idiot although did i play it incorrectly?

Edit: Since realised this guy an any 4 merchant. Unfortunetly he was also a very lucky any 4 merchant. Called two all ins later for a J which he hit of coarse despite two J's being accounted for lol. Although there where no reads at this stage.

Comments

  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    This is not a raising hand. Don't fall in love with big pairs so much, even aces you want to get over 40% of your stack in preflop to be able to comfortably stack off not caring about the board.

    Keep sticking to NLH until you feel comfortable with most spots you get into in that before you try branching out to other games such as omaha. 
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    This is not a raising hand. Don't fall in love with big pairs so much, even aces you want to get over 40% of your stack in preflop to be able to comfortably stack off not caring about the board. Keep sticking to NLH until you feel comfortable with most spots you get into in that before you try branching out to other games such as omaha. 
    Posted by beaneh
    Thanks Beaneh.

    Im comfortable with No Limit Omaha which i actually thought this game was, didnt realise it wasnt until i started. Ive added a little extra about the opponent, but didnt know this at the time of this hand.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : Thanks Beaneh. Im comfortable with No Limit Omaha which i actually thought this game was, didnt realise it wasnt until i started. Ive added a little extra about the opponent, but didnt know this at the time of this hand.
    Posted by The_Don90

    In general in omaha you want to play flops and make your decisions there, trying to use and accumulate as  many reads as possible on your opponents.

    Main mistakes moving from NLH to PLO are overvaluing medium strength made hands ie 7-T high flush etc, overvaluing non nut draws, defending your blinds with too wide a range (yes you have 4 cards but if you don't select your 4 wisely you can be in horrific shape even when you 'get it in good') and obviously over valuing aces/big pp's.
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : In general in omaha you want to play flops and make your decisions there, trying to use and accumulate as  many reads as possible on your opponents. Main mistakes moving from NLH to PLO are overvaluing medium strength made hands ie 7-T high flush etc, overvaluing non nut draws, defending your blinds with too wide a range (yes you have 4 cards but if you don't select your 4 wisely you can be in horrific shape even when you 'get it in good') and obviously over valuing aces/big pp's.
    Posted by beaneh
    Thanks again Beaneh, i had a little talk with Talon earlier in the week about big PP's and the like and i know he agrees with you here. He did say i have rights to raise it pre flop, but ont get over commited as i did here. I was lucky to flop an overset with my other card and hit a flush draw, almost a near perfect flop, bar walking into pocket 10's.

    I had no idea about my opponent here, this was very early in the DYM, i quickly learnt after, he can only raise, he doesnt know how to fold or check.

    This was the main reason id posted this hand, i knew i played it poorly but with it being Pot limit i wasnt sure how poorly. In no limit i probably would have played it differently.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : Thanks again Beaneh, i had a little talk with Talon earlier in the week about big PP's and the like and i know he agrees with you here. He did say i have rights to raise it pre flop, but ont get over commited as i did here. I was lucky to flop an overset with my other card and hit a flush draw, almost a near perfect flop, bar walking into pocket 10's. I had no idea about my opponent here, this was very early in the DYM, i quickly learnt after, he can only raise, he doesnt know how to fold or check. This was the main reason id posted this hand, i knew i played it poorly but with it being Pot limit i wasnt sure how poorly. In no limit i probably would have played it differently.
    Posted by The_Don90

    you have to be so tight in DYMs I really wouldn't raise hands like this pre.

    GL :)
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : you have to be so tight in DYMs I really wouldn't raise hands like this pre. GL :)
    Posted by beaneh
    Thanks Beaneh

    Yea unfortunetly i managed to bubble it. This guy was just so predicatble with his betting, raise, re-raise, all in etc. He done this everyhand i think the whole table would have been happier if id had him covered here. As a result i thought a flopped mugs end was good but of coarse it wasnt.
  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited July 2010
       Just had a chance to look at this hand and 2 things stick out very clearly about it.

     1) you played it very poorly preflop
     2) your opponent played it even worse on the flop

       Your starting hand has only 2 nut drawing possibilities(J7 suited is too extreme to count in this circumstance). The main rule to use in omaha preflop is to judge the quantity,not quality, of 2 card nut drawing hands you have.4 or more is good, 3 is average and less than 3 is poor. So this is a hand that if you want to play it you should be looking to get to the flop as cheap as possible and evaluate from there.(this is the standard for most hands to be honest as it is a game of draws and redraws).You had the chance to take a cheap flop which you should have done instead of reopening the betting.

       On the flop your opponent is drawing very thin indeed ( running kk or running AA) so you are lucky in that situation.But you should remember that you could easily have been behind to AQ KQ or TT and also your flush redraw could have been dominated or even dead.As played out you did the right thing on the flop but you made the decision about this pre flop when you reopened the betting and allowed the pot to get out of control before knowing where you stood.

      The key to omaha is to take the flop and evaluate your hand. When you see the flop and you hit a set or a big draw then you bet out. Even the best hand possible is not guarunteed to be better than 65% fave preflop and in this hand i think it was probably about 50-50 preflop so you were risking a large proportion of your stack preflop on a coinflip. By keeping control preflop and then deciding you can then get a much larger proportion of your chips over the line when the odds are well in your favour
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
       Just had a chance to look at this hand and 2 things stick out very clearly about it.  1) you played it very poorly preflop  2) your opponent played it even worse on the flop    Your starting hand has only 2 nut drawing possibilities(J7 suited is too extreme to count in this circumstance). The main rule to use in omaha preflop is to judge the quantity,not quality, of 2 card nut drawing hands you have.4 or more is good, 3 is average and less than 3 is poor. So this is a hand that if you want to play it you should be looking to get to the flop as cheap as possible and evaluate from there.(this is the standard for most hands to be honest as it is a game of draws and redraws).You had the chance to take a cheap flop which you should have done instead of reopening the betting.    On the flop your opponent is drawing very thin indeed ( running kk or running AA) so you are lucky in that situation.But you should remember that you could easily have been behind to AQ KQ or TT and also your flush redraw could have been dominated or even dead.As played out you did the right thing on the flop but you made the decision about this pre flop when you reopened the betting and allowed the pot to get out of control before knowing where you stood.   The key to omaha is to take the flop and evaluate your hand. When you see the flop and you hit a set or a big draw then you bet out. Even the best hand possible is not guarunteed to be better than 65% fave preflop and in this hand i think it was probably about 50-50 preflop so you were risking a large proportion of your stack preflop on a coinflip. By keeping control preflop and then deciding you can then get a much larger proportion of your chips over the line when the odds are well in your favour
    Posted by Talon
    Thanks talon

    Im trying to play a little more Omaha now, i prefer omaha to hold em but im a little scared to get into the nitty gritty of omaha, where as im happy to grind away in hold em.

    As a result next week i think ill be doing an all Omaha week so you may get a number of hands posted, not 100% decided however will depend on BR which is currently sitting strong enough for the levels im playing.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : Thanks talon Im trying to play a little more Omaha now, i prefer omaha to hold em but im a little scared to get into the nitty gritty of omaha, where as im happy to grind away in hold em. As a result next week i think ill be doing an all Omaha week so you may get a number of hands posted, not 100% decided however will depend on BR which is currently sitting strong enough for the levels im playing.
    Posted by The_Don90

    If you're moving to omaha and were a NL50 NLH player i'd suggest at least playing PLO20 the game plays so much bigger because it's so hard to fold at so many stages!
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : If you're moving to omaha and were a NL50 NLH player i'd suggest at least playing PLO20 the game plays so much bigger because it's so hard to fold at so many stages!
    Posted by beaneh
    I dont play alot of cash mate and if i do its usually NL4 lol.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : I dont play alot of cash mate and if i do its usually NL4 lol.
    Posted by The_Don90

    my point was the game plays bigger so drop down when you switch otherwise you might instantly busto your roll and be like norrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please:
    In Response to Re: PLO got very lucky advice please : my point was the game plays bigger so drop down when you switch otherwise you might instantly busto your roll and be like norrrrrrrrrrrrr
    Posted by beaneh
    Full respect mate. This was a 30p DYM that was shown here which at the time i had 100BI's for now sitting with 204Bi's

    Not going to go over the top, just gna try my way and if struggling ill quickly flick back to Hold em.
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