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Is there room for a 4-bet/fold?

CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancePOWERFULLSmall blind £0.25£0.25£54.01samgriffinBig blind £0.50£0.75£53.21 Your hole cardsQQ   card53Fold    CLIOKIDRaise £2.00£2.75£47.00Bossman180Raise £5.00£7.75£76.14alucard628Fold    POWERFULLFold    samgriffinCall £4.50£12.25£48.7
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    never everr 4bet fold QQ.


    why?


    ok because you are pretty much turning a pair of queens into a bluff by 4bet then folding. you are 4betting I guess to "ask them a question" which is do you have KK-AA???? if they shove, you get worried and fold. You are losing wayy too much value with QQ if you play them like that. Id rather see you do this wit hands like Q7s A4s K9s part of your range, then your value range.

    you should never 4bet fold hands like TT+ AQ+


    you raise in co, got 3bet on the button, this should never be a fold, unless btn is a uber nit. esp @ 6max.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited July 2010
    Not sure why my hands aren't copying right.

    All 3 players in the action have 100BB's or thereabouts.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Is there room for a 4-bet/fold?:
    never everr 4bet fold QQ. why? ok because you are pretty much turning a pair of queens into a bluff by 4bet then folding. you are 4betting I guess to "ask them a question" which is do you have KK-AA???? if they shove, you get worried and fold. You are losing wayy too much value with QQ if you play them like that. Id rather see you do this wit hands like Q7s A4s K9s part of your range, then your value range. you should never 4bet fold hands like TT+ AQ+ you raise in co, got 3bet on the button, this should never be a fold, unless btn is a uber nit. esp @ 6max.
    Posted by harvey23
    I pretty much agree with this.

    Villain is more of a fish so when he 3-bets kind of worried.

    I'm not sure if I like the flat call in this spot though, is flatting acceptable in this situation?
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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Is there room for a 4-bet/fold? : I pretty much agree with this. Villain is more of a fish so when he 3-bets kind of worried. I'm not sure if I like the flat call in this spot though, is flatting acceptable in this situation?
    Posted by CLIOKID
    i dont hate a flat if you play on c-r most flops, I mean if you think there range is super wide like JQ A7 57,69. if you 4bet they are going to fold most of these, so flatting has its benfits because you may be getting a cbet out of them.

    Sure sometimes they will spike there A/K, two pair, but in the long run this will be ev+ play.

    like I said it depends on the player, if you know they will get in 66-JJ pre to a co raise/4bet, then get it all in pre. If you know they are folding, calling has its place.

    edit, i saw bb flatted, defo 4bet here, but HU situation what i said above.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    Ahhhh so this pretty much covers exactly what Ive just read, and everything depends on the reads on the 3 bettor? right?

    I know from my own notes that the caller in the BB is a fish, he's nothing to worry about here.

    Can you turn this into like a reverse squeeze???

    The 3 bet amount is weird, he's made it £3 more? - So a 4 bet would be to say £16?

    The 3 better shoves for 100xbb, giving asking you to call another 34...

    So 34 to win 71.....means you have to win the pot like just over a third of the time to make it profitable long term?

    So using the range thing, if you put the range thing into play, you have to work out if you have 33% equity in the hand to call against his range?

    I can no way figure that out in my head....

    Say he could 5 bet shove with AA/KK/QQ/JJ and AKs/AKo....

    If Queens beats that range of hands more than 33% of the time.....you should call??

    Wow this is a blurrr, am I anywhere near the right lines here?
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Is there room for a 4-bet/fold?:
    lIn Response to Re: Is there room for a 4-bet/fold? : i dont hate a flat if you play on c-r most flops, I mean if you think there range is super wide like JQ A7 57,69. if you 4bet they are going to fold most of these, so flatting has its benfits because you may be getting a cbet out of them. Sure sometimes they will spike there A/K, two pair, but in the long run this will be ev+ play. like I said it depends on the player, if you know they will get in 66-JJ pre to a co raise/4bet, then get it all in pre. If you know they are folding, calling has its place. edit, i saw bb flatted, defo 4bet here, but HU situation what i said above.
    Posted by harvey23
    I'm actually UTG + 1 and 3-bet by the C/O.

    As I say this villain likes to call pre-flop so a few alarm bells go when I get 3-bet.

    I was very close to making it like 15 or so and folding to a shove if it came.

    I'll post out how the hands plays out after a few more comments.


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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    i would do the maths but im tired so ill do it tomorrow if this thread still has juice lol
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Is there room for a 4-bet/fold?:
    Ahhhh so this pretty much covers exactly what Ive just read, and everything depends on the reads on the 3 bettor? right? I know from my own notes that the caller in the BB is a fish, he's nothing to worry about here. Can you turn this into like a reverse squeeze??? The 3 bet amount is weird, he's made it £3 more? - So a 4 bet would be to say £16? The 3 better shoves for 100xbb, giving asking you to call another 34... So 34 to win 71.....means you have to win the pot like just over a third of the time to make it profitable long term? So using the range thing, if you put the range thing into play, you have to work out if you have 33% equity in the hand to call against his range? I can no way figure that out in my head.... Say he could 5 bet shove with AA/KK/QQ/JJ and AKs/AKo.... If Queens beats that range of hands more than 33% of the time.....you should call?? Wow this is a blurrr, am I anywhere near the right lines here?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    You've cracked it mate...

    Which is where you pokerstove it to find out if you have 33% equity.

    Something which I've never actually used yet...

    As I say I'm worried about being 3-bet as the player who called is a station and now particularly aggro.

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    Yeh the size of the 3 bet is what makes me dizzy, ud expect £6 min at nl50, dnt recognise the name, but maybe the size of the 3 bet makes a 4 bet fold possible?

    An exception to Harveys rule maybe?

    4 betting a 3 bet from 5 to 15, leaves 35 behind....and maybe a way off the hand?

    4 betting a 3 bet from 6-50/7 wud have to be to 21ish, leaving 29 behind....and prices you in to call?

    Surely this shud effect the decision and ability to 4-bet fold from a mathamatical P.O.V?

    Also, dya wanna get into an all in situation/probably flip at best against a donk who you can outplay later on?

    These are all my thoughts/questions, not implying anything by them - my head is actually spinning
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited July 2010
    4 bet to get it in or cawl and play some streets.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited July 2010
    sigh typed out wall of text then timed out,

    QQ has 40% equity vs AK,KK,AA this is useful to know.

    if you put 1/3 of your stack in preflop and villain shoves you are getting exactly 2:1. this is also good to know

    my 4bets are always between 22-27bbs when 100bb deep. the actual size depends on the initial raise/3bet sizing (if its a sqz then you will have to 4bet larger as sqz's are generally larger than normal 3bets, also if you are in late position you tend to open to smaller amount than in EP so it has a knock on effect and the 3bet & 4bet size becomes smaller. if i cant make a 4bet <30bbs without offering ridiculous odds on a call (lol @ flatting 4bets) then i would just 4bet shove (lots of people tend to 4bet shove AK and 4bet small KK+ which is also lol btw)
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited July 2010
    As I say I was close to 4b folding.

    Instead I flatted and flopped Q high and stacked his KK.

    Just wasn't sure if flatting was the right play in this spot, obv was this time as I hit monster flop but thats obv results oriented.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited July 2010

    top set mining skills are in excellent working order then, if BB is a big fish then its fine as hes going to flop lots of worse pairs and stack off

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