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Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing

silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
Again, in the process of taking some steps back to move forward again, one of the things that I think is a bit of a weak point for me is bet sizing. This is more so in situations like this where I've hit top pair OOP with an OK (ish) kicker.

My thinking here is that I want to bet out for 2 reasons:

1 - Given the pre flop play I'm reasonably certain that I've got the best hand right now & with 2 hearts on board I need to both protect my hand & make anyone on the flush draw pay to hit.

2 - If I don't have the best hand right now then the only way I can find out that information is to bet out.

So with that in mind, what sort of amount should I be betting out here? Pot size? 3/4 pot? I assume we're always happy to take down the pot here & now every time in this situation or are we losing too much value in the long run?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Player 1 Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £6.65
silentbob Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £11.94
  Your hole cards
  • 10
  • 9
     
Player 2 Fold     
Player 3 Call  £0.08 £0.20 £2.06
Player 4 Call  £0.08 £0.28 £10.18
Player 5 Call  £0.08 £0.36 £2.81
Player 1 Call  £0.04 £0.40 £6.61
silentbob Check     
Flop
   
  • 4
  • 10
  • 6
     
Player 1 Check     
silentbob ???     
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Comments

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    I think this is similar to your 2nd question in NO.1....

    May get slaughtered for this, but I think again here it is a check fold.

    How can you assume you have the best hand?

    5 ways, what sorts of hands do you think the limpers are limping with?

    TJ/TQ/TK/and even AT are likely hands that weak passive players will limp with....

    Its a draw heavy board, and there are gonna be loads of turns that you don't like when you meet resistance on the flop....and you are gonna find yourself OOP on the turn in a really tricky spot.

    I might have mis-interpreted what I have just read, but thats what I reckon...


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  • harvey23harvey23 Member Posts: 433
    edited July 2010
    c-f you going to be losing money by betting oop to 5 other players, you gonna get floated a ton, and you will make mistakes on the turn and river which will cost you money.

    you want to put your inself in as little difficult situations as you can, any bet you make here is going to put you in a tough spot OOP. just c-f.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited July 2010
    id bet/fold 30p check/fold turn and river unimproved. actually if the turn is checked through and its a heads up pot, i would put a half pot bet in.


    poker is about making the correct decisions, not making the easy decisions. being oop 5way does suck though
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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing:
    id bet/fold 30p check/fold turn and river unimproved. actually if the turn is checked through and its a heads up pot, i would put a half pot bet in. poker is about making the correct decisions, not making the easy decisions. being oop 5way does suck though
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    LOL_RAISE in my thinking is spot on with what he says you have to ask the question, the players that have missed the flop wont like the board.
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing:
    I think this is similar to your 2nd question in NO.1.... May get slaughtered for this, but I think again here it is a check fold. How can you assume you have the best hand? 5 ways, what sorts of hands do you think the limpers are limping with? TJ/TQ/TK/and even AT are likely hands that weak passive players will limp with.... Its a draw heavy board, and there are gonna be loads of turns that you don't like when you meet resistance on the flop....and you are gonna find yourself OOP on the turn in a really tricky spot. I might have mis-interpreted what I have just read, but thats what I reckon...
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I think you're right in that it is fairly similar to the 2nd question in my first post, I didn't really think about it when posting! Although having said that this question was really assuming that most (all?) would bet out here.

    Again though, I understand what you're saying (same with Harvey), but other than the obvious FD out there, is that not the sort of board that's likely to have missed most players if not all of them? If TP here is any good then wouldn't I be losing value in the long term by not asking the question? In these sort of situations are we always looking for 2 pair/OESD as a minimum requirement to stay in the hand then?

    At the time I kinda thought along similar lines as LOL_RAISE & did bet out which got one caller. At that point I put the brakes on. 
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    Here's a really similar hand Jay, thats happened in the last hour (hence I could find it)

    I decided to bet it, coz there are less players in the hand.

    As soon as I met resistance tho, Im done, until he makes such a weak bet on the turn, and from my notes, he's never folding to a raise. So it puts me in a spot where I cant fold, I cant raise, Im in no mans land......






               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               

               
               
               

               
               
               
               

               
               
               
               
               
               
               







               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               

               
               
               

               
               
               
               

               
               
               
               
               
               
               
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    wow, FF went nutz!
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    ricoramb03 Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £28.65
    DOHHHHHHH Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £32.35
      Your hole cards
    • 10
    • 9
    		     
    scottyjohn Fold        
    lolw555 Call   £0.30 £0.75 £9.87
    rats107 Fold        
    jenars Call   £0.30 £1.05 £84.23
    ricoramb03 Call   £0.15 £1.20 £28.50
    DOHHHHHHH Check        
    Flop
       
    • 4
    • 6
    • 10
    		     
    ricoramb03 Check        
    DOHHHHHHH Bet   £1.00 £2.20 £31.35
    lolw555 Fold        
    jenars Call   £1.00 £3.20 £83.23
    ricoramb03 Fold        
    Turn
       
    • 2
    		     
    DOHHHHHHH Check        
    jenars Bet   £0.90 £4.10 £82.33
    DOHHHHHHH Call   £0.90 £5.00 £30.45
    River
       
    • 5
    		     
    DOHHHHHHH Check        
    jenars Check        
    DOHHHHHHH Show
    • 10
    • 9
    		     
    jenars Show
    • Q
    • 10
    		     
    jenars Win Pair of 10s £4.75   £87.08
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    btw I had no idea they were THAT similar !!!
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing:
    Again, in the process of taking some steps back to move forward again, one of the things that I think is a bit of a weak point for me is bet sizing. This is more so in situations like this where I've hit top pair OOP with an OK (ish) kicker. My thinking here is that I want to bet out for 2 reasons: 1 - Given the pre flop play I'm reasonably certain that I've got the best hand right now & with 2 hearts on board I need to both protect my hand & make anyone on the flush draw pay to hit. 2 - If I don't have the best hand right now then the only way I can find out that information is to bet out. So with that in mind, what sort of amount should I be betting out here? Pot size? 3/4 pot? I assume we're always happy to take down the pot here & now every time in this situation or are we losing too much value in the long run? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Player 1  Small blind   £0.04 £0.04 £6.65 silentbob Big blind   £0.08 £0.12 £11.94   Your hole cards 10 9       Player 2  Fold         Player 3  Call   £0.08 £0.20 £2.06 Player 4  Call   £0.08 £0.28 £10.18 Player 5  Call   £0.08 £0.36 £2.81 Player 1  Call   £0.04 £0.40 £6.61 silentbob Check         Flop     4 10 6       Player 1  Check         silentbob ???        

    Posted by silentbob[/QUOTE

    to say you are reasonably certain you have the best hand here is crazy, you are in a multiway pot with 10 9 on a cordinated two tone board were its most likely that at least one other player will peel and your hand will be behind on the turn, these are the classic hands were inexperinced players get in to trouble and spew lots of money
    as for betting you should be thinking along these lines
    1: are you betting for value or bluffing?
    2: if value betting which hands will call or raise?
    3: and the times when you do bluff do you have any pot or fold equity?

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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing:
    In Response to Getting back to basics - No 2 - Bet sizing :
    Again, in the process of taking some steps back to move forward again, one of the things that I think is a bit of a weak point for me is bet sizing. This is more so in situations like this where I've hit top pair OOP with an OK (ish) kicker. My thinking here is that I want to bet out for 2 reasons: 1 - Given the pre flop play I'm reasonably certain that I've got the best hand right now & with 2 hearts on board I need to both protect my hand & make anyone on the flush draw pay to hit. 2 - If I don't have the best hand right now then the only way I can find out that information is to bet out. So with that in mind, what sort of amount should I be betting out here? Pot size? 3/4 pot? I assume we're always happy to take down the pot here & now every time in this situation or are we losing too much value in the long run? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Player 1  Small blind   £0.04 £0.04 £6.65 silentbob Big blind   £0.08 £0.12 £11.94   Your hole cards 10 9       Player 2  Fold         Player 3  Call   £0.08 £0.20 £2.06 Player 4  Call   £0.08 £0.28 £10.18 Player 5  Call   £0.08 £0.36 £2.81 Player 1  Call   £0.04 £0.40 £6.61 silentbob Check         Flop     4 10 6       Player 1  Check         silentbob ???         Posted by silentbob[/QUOTE to say you are reasonably certain you have the best hand here is crazy, you are in a multiway pot with 10 9 on a cordinated two tone board were its most likely that at least one other player will peel and your hand will be behind on the turn, these are the classic hands were inexperinced players get in to trouble and spew lots of money as for betting you should be thinking along these lines 1: are you betting for value or bluffing? 2: if value betting which hands will call or raise? 3: and the times when you do bluff do you have any pot or fold equity?
    Posted by N1CK

    Fair points Nick, I think I should have probably chosen my words in the OP better. Maybe what I should have said is that I think it's reasonable to think that I may have the best hand here?

    What about betting for information though? Is that not a valid reason to bet out? Maybe I'm missing a point somewhere & if so then it's definitely one thing I need to improve on (hence the post in here).

    Also, I'm not sure what you mean about bluffing here (maybe it was a general question & not directly linked to this particular hand?).

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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    One more question going back to Nick's points, how do you know if you're betting for value in situations like this where you might have the best hand but you don't actually know? I may be misunderstanding some terminology but surely you can only value bet if you know (or are at least pretty certain) that you're ahead?
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    your betting for value if you think you will be called by worse, its an extreamly thin value bet into 4 other players, you may well have the best hand but the chances of someone peeling a card are very high and any turn card higher than a 10 and your behind, you need to think about these thing before you decide what actions to take

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