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All in raise on turn - call or fold?

silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
edited July 2010 in The Poker Clinic
Following on from my post about playing TAG I had this hand in tonight's little cash session.

I've been on the table for about an hour up until this point & villain has also been there the whole time. As planned I have been playing a really TAG game only getting involved with strong starting hands in position. Pretty much every hand I'd raised PF with previous to this had been folded by everyone. The only exception to this was the hand before this one where I'd raised OTB with AJ & got 2 callers. I bet out on a queen high flop & took that one down. So this hand is straight afterwards & it's the first time I've played 2 hands in succession (raising PF both times).

Villain liked to play a fair few hands but probably only an average amount, particularly for this level. Most hands that they'd won didn't get to showdown but of the few that did get that far they had at least top pair.

So my question here is simple, call or fold? Any comments about my bet sizing PF/flop are also welcome as it's something I struggle with a bit.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
-----Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £2.25
-----Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £7.01
-----Big blind  £0.08 £0.20 £5.57
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • A
     
-----Call  £0.08 £0.28 £2.92
silentbob Raise  £0.48 £0.76 £8.35
-----Fold     
VILLAINCall  £0.48 £1.24 £9.27
-----Fold     
-----Fold     
-----Call  £0.40 £1.64 £2.52
Flop
   
  • A
  • 5
  • 4
     
-----Check     
silentbob Bet  £0.90 £2.54 £7.45
VILLAINCall  £0.90 £3.44 £8.37
-----Fold     
Turn
   
  • 10
     
silentbob Bet  £2.00 £5.44 £5.45
VILLAINAll-in  £8.37 £13.81 £0.00
silentbob ???    
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Comments

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010
    I know this villain very well m8, and he has you beat alot more often than not here.

    I think it's one of those spots where the best you can hope for is AK for a split, but realistically, he has 44/55 most of the time, and ace ten suited the rest (I don't think he calls that much pre with ace ten,......so can pretty much rule it out)

    AK/44/55 are the hands he has here imo - so obviously calling to split aint an option.

    .....so I fold.

    £5.50 into £13, means you have to be good once every 3.5 times I believe....

    18.5/5,5 = 3.7ish?.....

    EDIT- Have I done that wrong by adding the call money to the potsize before working it out?
    If so, It would be 13.5/5.5 = 2.4.....so even more reason to fold?....

    But I dont think he ever shoves here with worse than AK.

    So the odds don't really matter?

    Maybe Im wrong....any other villian btw im snap calling
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    Oops! Realised after your post that I'd left the names in. Changed now.

    So does this person normally play higher stakes then? I've seen them at this level for the last few nights I've been playing.

    Interesting that you'd snap call anyone other than this person though. I hadn't played them before so had no real notes other than what I'd seen myself.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    Well when I first started on sky I was nl20.....I only stook 20 quid on to play the open, put the leftover £6 on a footy bet, which gave me £46, so i decided to 2 table nl20 and spin it up (I was on nl50$$ on WHill) - anyway sky went well and I built a seperate roll on here before deciding to come here full time and withdraw the lot from WH.

    So in my first 2/3 months here I played alot with him.

    ..........so maybe I have moved up a couple of levels and he's moved down.

    Your note about him showing down nothing less than top pair is spot on, he aint putting his stack in with less than AK here imo.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited July 2010
    id bet bigger on flop & turn myself, fold to shove
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    id bet bigger on flop & turn myself, fold to shove
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    What sort of size bets are you making here then? After the call PF & flop I had villain on an ace.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited July 2010
    Looks like he has a monster here, the wheel, AT, set, something like that. Best you could hope for is to be against a combo draw but against his range here you are crushed big time. So you can comfortably fold this :)
    In the heat of the moment I probs call though because i cant lay down TPGK in the heat of the moment... doh :(
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    if you flop a strong enough hand were you want to stack your opponent work out your bet sizing for each street so you can get all the money in with a pot size or less bet on the river, 
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    Looks like he has a monster here, the wheel, AT, set, something like that. Best you could hope for is to be against a combo draw but against his range here you are crushed big time. So you can comfortably fold this :) In the heat of the moment I probs call though because i cant lay down TPGK in the heat of the moment... doh :(
    Posted by BlackFish3
    fwiw, I completely dismissed the possibility of him having the straight as that would've meant him calling my PF raise with 23 & even at this level I just can't see that happening enough times to worry about it imo. 2 pair/sets were in my mind though but would he not have raised my bet on the flop if he'd hit a set or would that just be too obvious?
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited July 2010
    I bet £1.10 on the flop and £2.40 on the turn btw.
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : fwiw, I completely dismissed the possibility of him having the straight as that would've meant him calling my PF raise with 23 & even at this level I just can't see that happening enough times to worry about it imo. 2 pair/sets were in my mind though but would he not have raised my bet on the flop if he'd hit a set or would that just be too obvious?
    Posted by silentbob
    You can never just dismiss a hand imo. Just think of it as an unlikely possibility. Could call in position with 23s. The flop was dry so I don't see him raising there with a set.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited July 2010
    id prob just mash the 3/4 pot button as im lazy
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : You can never just dismiss a hand imo. Just think of it as an unlikely possibility. Could call in position with 23s. The flop was dry so I don't see him raising there with a set.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    its not that dry, he can raise a set there the Ace hits the ops range, would you call ip with 23s? i think you can narrow it down to flop set A10 pocket tens more likely
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : its not that dry, he can raise a set there the Ace hits the ops range, would you call ip with 23s? i think you can narrow it down to flop set A10 pocket tens more likely
    Posted by N1CK
    If he's got pocket 10's here is it reasonable to expect him to call the flop bet? Unless he doesn't believe I've got an ace I'm sure he's not getting any sort of odds to hit a 2 outer?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2010

    You can 99.99* rule out 23 with this villain, maybe only a misclick would lead to him calling pre flop.

    He maybe could float the flop with TT - ut still you're looking for hands you can beat, so that there is a decision here.....

    All the talk is of hands that crush you.

    The one hand he cud have that u beat is AQ and thats super unlikely IMO.

    I want the answer :(
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3 Member Posts: 2,418
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : its not that dry, he can raise a set there the Ace hits the ops range, would you call ip with 23s? i think you can narrow it down to flop set A10 pocket tens more likely
    Posted by N1CK
    Just because I wouldn't doesn't mean someone else wouldn't.

    Would you call an UTG raise from the BB with 52o? No... oh, someone did it to me.
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : If he's got pocket 10's here is it reasonable to expect him to call the flop bet? Unless he doesn't believe I've got an ace I'm sure he's not getting any sort of odds to hit a 2 outer?
    Posted by silentbob
    yeah you could of missed this flop and be c-betting reppin the ace so peeling one is ok then folding the turn if i dont improve
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold? : Just because I wouldn't doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. Would you call an UTG raise from the BB with 52o? No... oh, someone did it to me.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    yeah for sure but you have to give respect until proven otherwise, the op did say all his hand that went to SD were tptk hands
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  • silentbobsilentbob Member Posts: 2,137
    edited July 2010
    Well in the end I thought about it & really wanted to fold but I just couldn't find the button. Unfortunately he flipped over pocket 10's which surprised me a little but then like Nick says, I could've quite easily missed that board so he floated & got a little luck.

    Lesson learned, notes made & on to the next hand.


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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited July 2010
    betIn Response to Re: All in raise on turn - call or fold?:
    Well in the end I thought about it & really wanted to fold but I just couldn't find the button. Unfortunately he flipped over pocket 10's which surprised me a little but then like Nick says, I could've quite easily missed that board so he floated & got a little luck. Lesson learned, notes made & on to the next hand.
    Posted by silentbob
    bet bet bet for value then stop if you get reraised you can win just by this piece of advice alone lol
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