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calling 3 bets out of position against Regs 100BB deep
N1CK
Member Posts: 1,453
with what hands is it good and what hands is it not and why?
Comments
It depends what hand the other guy/s has/ve
Cos i'm a fish
NL Holdem 0.5BB/1BB
SB (100BB)
BB (100BB)
RANDOM PLAYER (100BB)
Hero (100BB)
CO/BU[REG] (100BB)
Dealt to Hero xx
fold, Hero raises to 3BB, fold, CO/BTN raises to 11-12BB, fold, fold, Hero ???
It's a common situation for most of us: We raise in MP or the CO and a reg behind us 3bets us.
So what do we do now?
With the top of our range (i.e. hands like KK, AA and AK) it's pretty clear: 4bet and get it in.
Also with hands like 72o up to something like KTs and even ATs it's pretty easy to determine the best play:
We fold most of the time unless we decide to 4betbluff.
So the hands left are TT-QQ, AQ and AJ.
Apparently a lot of poker players struggle with those strong-but-not-premium hands and end up taking the worst line:
Calling out of position.
Why is calling the worst line?
A lot of people reason that by calling strong Ax they can c/c several streets and trap the opponent and they also plan on moving on a lot of flops.
But as a matter of fact once the pot is around 25BB there's neither room for moving nor are there a lot of possibilities to trap.
"Moving" means check/raising for the most part, and once there are 25BB in the pot and the opponent bets 1/2 pot (~12BB) you're facing a pot of 37BB - check/raising will lead to a lot of weird spots when the opponent shoves and you only need 25% equity to call but you still have to fold.
In fact most people just c/f on almost any flop they don't hit.
This isn't necessarily bad: once someone 3bets you and cbets the flop his range usually is somewhat strong and people are going broke light in 3bet pots, so we don't have too much foldequity and therefore checkraising might not be +EV.
So we can't checkraise-bluff.
But we still have the opportunity to trap the opponent, don't we?
To answer this question let's get a bit more specific: Let's say we open AQo in the CO and BU 3bets, we call.
The possible scenarios are:
J high or K high flop:
We already determined that we end up check/folding most of the time.
The Q high flop:
Now it gets interesting, we hit TPTK so let's get some value.
We probably check every single time (the opponent cbets too much and we want to abuse this) and are faced with the decision to either call or raise.
Let's just say both options have their merits agaist certain opponents.
If the opponent 3bets hands like KQ and QJ we might stack them, if he likes to barrel we can just c/c several streets.
But if we c/r we still don't get it in nearly as often against worse hands as we'd like to: the opponent is just b/folding AK, KJ and other air type of hands and KQ and QJ only make up for 6 combinations each - and he might not even 3bet them all the time.
AA (3 combos) and KK (6 combos) make up for 9 combos already, so stacking off on the Q high flop isn't -EV but it's not as +EV as we'd like it to be either.
So we might consider just c/calling the Q high flop - but in this case on the turn we'll quickly realize that there's not much we can do to get additional value: If we check the opponent is giving up a decent amount of the time with air.
At the same time if we check and he bets we actually aren't too happy about it either: His 2ndbarrelingrange is pretty strong, so we feel like we're getting valuetowned already.
To prevent the opponent from checking back we could lead out - but now he's just folding all of his bluffs but he still continues with all better hands, so leading out thwarts our diabolic plan to trap him.
The A high flop:
Ok so in a nutshell if we don't hit we check/fold most of the time and on Q high boards we don't win too much overall, but we still have A high boards to get some value, right?
Well, not exactly. The A high board has the same disadvantages as the Q high board - but even worse.
In regards of check/raising on the Q high board there were KQ and QJ, but on the A high board there's only AJ - and two aces are out so AJ only has 8 combos.
Also by check/raising we force the opponent to fold all pocket pairs and all of his air.
Ok no problem, the plan was to trap him anyway.
So lets say the board is Axx with x T or lower.
We check/call.
The turn is x, also T or lower: now the trapping begins - or does it?
Let's first look at our range in the opponents eyes:
he 3bet on the CO or BU and another reg coldcalled his 3bet OOP.
Pretty unlikely the opponent is "bluffcalling" OOP, so he most likely has a good pocket pair or two broadway cards.
Now there's an A high flop and the opponen check/calls knowing that the pot will be as big as 50BB after his call.
This screams for strength obviously.
So to switch back the positions if we check again on the turn the opponent will just check back most pocket pairs because he assumes we have Ax once we c/c on an A high board OOP with so much money in the pot already.
He will also not bluffbet because he expects to have little foldequity.
Of course if there are some dynamics going on he might suspect we check/call QQ or JJ sometimes on the flop, but if we're capable of that we are also very likely to just 4bet preflop.
Having said that we obviously don't ever win much from the opponents bluffs, therefore the plan we came up with preflop is pretty much worthless - the opponent just doesn't play along.
So to get back to our preflop-decision:
As we saw calling is obviously not an option. If you are in a spot like this you can 4bet if foldequity+potequity are sufficient and you can also just fold.
There's nothing wrong with folding, if you can fold here it means the opponent is not 3betting often enough to make 4betting profitable - but that also means he's not putting pressure on you by 3betting light, so you don't have a reason to play back in the first place.
I picked AQ as an example, but I guess you're able to see the problems you will have with QQ OOP (facing overcards etc).
Notice that if stacks get deeper or you have some history with the opponent (or reads) the assumptions above might not be accurate any more and there might be a reason to call a 3bet OOP.
But - even though in poker it's almost always wrong to make general statements - against unknowns it's pretty safe to say that for 100BB it's always wrong to call a 3bet out of position.
where did u copy/paste that from?