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MTT Hand - Advice / Opinions Needed Please

SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic

Last months £200 DS, 25-30 players left, 5 paid, this happened:

Hand History #274123320 (21:27 22/07/2010)

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
the_gibb Small blind  75.00 75.00 5550.00
SHANXTA Big blind  150.00 225.00 7035.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • A
     
TheyDontNo Fold     
Villain Raise  450.00 675.00 6230.00
NIHIGHGUN Fold     
phil12uk Fold     
the_gibb Fold     
SHANXTA Raise  1350.00 2025.00 5685.00
Villain Raise  5250.00 7275.00 980.00
SHANXTA Fold     
Villain Muck     
Villain Win  3075.00  4055.00
Villain Return  4200.00 0.00 8255.00

Now I know that normally you shouldn't 3bet fold AK, but is there an arguement to doing it here as it's such a well structured tourny?

Villain seems to be playing pretty ABC, and has had a hand when it's gone to showdown, not been too aggressive.
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    My stack size - 7000
    Villain - 6800
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    I have gone for flat pre, i assume blinds are 100/200 or less so dont think in DS you should be overcommiting with AK. If you call you have the chance to hit and take it down, miss and get away as cheaply as possible although still when hitting in a DS eg k high flip still need to treat with a bit of caution obviously
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    BUMP!

    Surely there's more of you out there!
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    I suspect the lack of replies is coz its such a tough situation, and no1 really knows what to do....

    I've looked at it twice and not been able to come up with anything constructive, but ill bump it to say im clueless....

    It's all about the oppo here  - i dunno about deepstack strategy, what's his opinion of you? Does he have you down as a creative player? - does he know you that well? ;) - If it were me I could 4 bet shove against you with a wider range, knowing that your 3 bet range can also be pretty wide....but u describe him as abc and solid, so maybe u have to give him credit here

    Be good to get replies from penguin, scotty and even tk on this - the top mtt players....

    I think in this structure there's loads of play early, but upto and around the bubble, it quickly becomes shove/fold, so maybe gambling with AK early isnt a bad move, as the structure isnt that slow.....
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  • MAXALLYMAXALLY Member Posts: 17,636
    edited August 2010


    Just two quick points for you.

    1) You have Ace high and villain has shown some aggression to your raise. I would fold and look for a better spot to make a move against this player with  better position/cards against him.

    2) Phil12uk is the DEALER and he has been known to deal of the bottom of the pack (anyone noticed how often he sucks out on opponents when he is dealing!!!)......so the cards the villain would have here would defo be AA/KK/QQ......and at worst, AK soooooooted.
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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited August 2010
    A tough spot for sure. Based on the players profile I reckon you're probably up against JJ+, maybe AK. If so you have a coin flip at best, but both AA and KK look likely so you may well be big dog. I reluctantly fold.

    Table image is crucial in this decision, yours and his, I would be shoving against some opponents.
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT Hand - Advice / Opinions Needed Please:
    I suspect the lack of replies is coz its such a tough situation, and no1 really knows what to do.... I've looked at it twice and not been able to come up with anything constructive, but ill bump it to say im clueless.... It's all about the oppo here  - i dunno about deepstack strategy, what's his opinion of you? Does he have you down as a creative player? - does he know you that well? ;) - If it were me I could 4 bet shove against you with a wider range, knowing that your 3 bet range can also be pretty wide....but u describe him as abc and solid, so maybe u have to give him credit here Be good to get replies from penguin, scotty and even tk on this - the top mtt players.... I think in this structure there's loads of play early, but upto and around the bubble, it quickly becomes shove/fold, so maybe gambling with AK early isnt a bad move, as the structure isnt that slow.....
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    One crucial bit of info i missed of the 1st post is that he saw me flat wiv AK OOP 2/3 levels previous, where the pot was checked down and I split wiv A high.

    I'm after all opinions, but like you say, it would be nice to hear the opinions of Phil, Scotty, TK, Penguin, Flash, SoLack etc etc, apologies to any big MTT'ers iv missed!

    It wont be long til you've taken down this tourny now!
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    Why would you 3 bet and then fold?

    you don't have enough chips or information to fold this.
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT Hand - Advice / Opinions Needed Please:
    Why would you 3 bet and then fold? you don't have enough chips or information to fold this.
    Posted by beaneh
    I'm really not claiming to have played the hand well.

    Pretty certain I was 3bet calling, til the fact it was a £200 event flashed thru my head and I hit the fold button, hoping to find a better spot.

    So I take it you are 3bet calling?
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2010
    Im one of these people who probably over plays AK. I re-raise pre, and id also be willing to race, but then im more used to faster structures.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT Hand - Advice / Opinions Needed Please:
    In Response to Re: MTT Hand - Advice / Opinions Needed Please : I'm really not claiming to have played the hand well. Pretty certain I was 3bet calling, til the fact it was a £200 event flashed thru my head and I hit the fold button, hoping to find a better spot. So I take it you are 3bet calling?
    Posted by SHANXTA

    the 200£ factor should only be able to affect your opponents. this is just another tournie. and in any tournie AK is a good hand.


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  • J-HartiganJ-Hartigan Member Posts: 2,756
    edited August 2010
    Based on stacks, calling the villain's four-bet is the worst thing you can do here.  Why on earth would you commit 75% of your chips pre, only to fold if you don't hit the flop?  That would be horrible.

    So, should you just ship it pre?  Well, AK is a great hand to shove with WHEN you've got fold equity, but because the villain has left himself <1,000 he's never laying the hand down.  You have 0% fold equity.

    Now, if you genuinely believe that the villain's playing ABC poker, and are giving him credit for a very strong hand (JJ-AA or AK), then folding pre-flop may be the best option.

    Assuming you put-him all-in, you'll be staking an additional 4,900 to win the 7,300 in the middle.  So, you're getting slightly worse than 6/4.  Therefore, I don't think you have enough equity in the pot to justify calling against this narrow range.

    However, if, as DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH suggests, the structure is starting to get a bit fast and furious, then the villain's range becomes significantly wider and your willingness to gamble should certainly become stronger - especially, as beaneh observes, you've already put 20% of your stack in the middle with that three-bet.

    In this spot, (i.e. at this stage of a six-max tournament, with the blinds and stacks as they are), my gut instinct would be to shove - with or without fold equity.

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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    if the guy puts in 90% of his stack

    a) assume it's a shove

    and b) don't assume he's playing abc solid because that isn't lol

    he may have chosen his starting hands over half an hour but he hasn't made a very good bet size so dont give him much credit. 


    just dont fold it's Ace and king
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    Lol I don't think anyone is suggesting calling the 4 bet and then folding if no A or K comes on the flop. Obviously the villains 4-bet is a virtual all-in, so the 2 options are now to shove or fold. If my maths is correct I think we are going to have to call off a further 5180 to win 13360 so we need 38.77% equity to make the call. Even if we put him on just JJ+ and AK we still have odds to call:

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
    Hand 0:     39.785%      23.66%     16.13%           10936805       7456889.50   { AdKs }
    Hand 1:     60.215%      44.09%     16.13%           20381624       7456889.50   { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

    So I definitely wouldn't be 3-bet/folding here w/o some specific reads, also I think this 3 bet size is better than 3 bet shoving (I would probably even 3-bet a bit smaller) as by shoving we fold out any bluffs/weaker aces that he may continue with if he thinks he still has fold equity, and it balances the other times when we are 3-bet bluffing and don't want to be pot committed.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    Does the equity v oppos range still apply in mtts then?

    Surely not, as u have 1 life.....whereas in cash u have as many as u like.

    Surely it's even more important to get every single decision spot on? Therefore u need to put him on "A HAND" or at least a very specific range? - when there is play ofc, not at shove/fold time.

    Im no mtt specialist, but once I go deep (not bothered in the first hour, gamble/bust) - Im counting every chip and very protective of my stack, you gotta be in it to win it.

    I see some unbelievable folds in mtt's from like the main event and stuff - which ud never in a million years see in a cash game.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    But if you make +ev decisions every tournament then in the long term you should still be in profit as by definition you're winning more chips than your losing. The wsop ME is different as people aren't thinking about the long term because for most players its not something they can afford to do every year, and also even a minor cash can be a life changing amount.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    Ye but surely a more successful mtt player is going to be the one who makes the right decision in each specific situation more often than not - as opposed to a player who has a winning game over time.

    Even more so in tournaments, its this instinct and feel, making hero calls and amazing folds to avoid tourny bullets, - that seperates the best from the rest.

    I have qualified for this tourny at the end of the month, £220 buy in, which is wayyyyyyyyy more than I'd ever dream of paying for an mtt, I don't even play primo - and my approach in this is going to be to try and get every single decision right - wether thats right or wrong, Im sure it will improve my performance for this 1 specific tourny - coz at the time what else matters?
     
    If I can get away from KK pre flop and the guy has AA, it's a great fold - Idnt care if people say it's a losing fold over time, I'm not playing over time, im playing this game right here right now - and i'll trust myself to get it right 1 way or the other.

    Having said this - I'm still unsure as to what I'd do in the above hand, as I'd need to know who the villain is.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    I agree totally dohhhhh, in tournaments i play the situation and getting it right dont even think about +ev overtime

    Have always done better in MTT then cash for it aswell
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    I think you are being way too results orientated with your thinking - you can't make a decision with incomplete information then evaluate your decision merely on the results of that 1 hand in isolation.

    For example just say someone shoves all-in on the river and you have the 2nd nuts, and in your opinion he has the nuts about 20% of the time based on the range you put him on, its the correct play to make the call 100% of the time, no matter what the result of that 1 particular hand is.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    How about if you can make the call 80 times when you are ahead, and fold the 20 times when he has the nuts.

    Pefection?

    ........Is this possible?

    More realistically, 'over time' - make the call 900,000 times, including the 800,000 times you have him beat, and 100,000 times when you are behind - hence saving 100,000 tournaments.

    Again, if it is possible to make the perfect decision every single time, then why not aim to do so?
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