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Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?

mattlessmattless Member Posts: 194
edited August 2010 in The Poker Clinic
This is a hand from last nights BH. I have just joined the table so have no real reads. I have been thinking about my bet size on flop. I realise I am a little unlucky but if I bet 1/2 pot on flop can I get away? Anymore and I'm commited anyway, hence all-in. Thoughts please.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
volcan0 Small blind   300.00 300.00 11120.00
Forest1975 Big blind   600.00 900.00 10292.50
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
     
Shrub Fold        
mattless Raise   1800.00 2700.00 9090.00
loydon Fold        
x
 Call   1800.00 4500.00 22258.00
volcan0 Fold        
Forest1975 Fold        
Flop
   
  • 10
  • 5
  • 10
     
mattless All-in   9090.00 13590.00 0.00
x
 Call   9090.00 22680.00 13168.00
mattless Show
  • J
  • J
     
x
 Show
  • A
  • 10
     
Turn
   
  • 7
     
River
   
  • 3
     
x
 Win Three 10s 22680.00   35848.00
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Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2010
    You have 18 BB's before the action gets to you, I would raise it to 1400 which gets same answer. Then with a pot of 3700 bet about 2100 then you can possibly get away from it with 12 BB's remaining, but it's a pretty tough spot.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    I'd raise to 2400 pre, then shove flop GL if they got 10 but thats a good flop generally for most hands that would call a 4 bet pre
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    Why would you want to call it of but not the other way?? usually its best to shove then call
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo Member Posts: 749
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    Why would you want to call it of but not the other way?? usually its best to shove then call
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    If you bet you can get called by Ace high alot of the time, any smaller pocket pairs, and it allows him to try and bluff you. All of these we can get value from. Shoving can only get called by a 10, he cant bluff and he wont call us light.
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  • mattlessmattless Member Posts: 194
    edited August 2010
    If I bet 1/2 pot bet or just over on flop is it the right move to fold to a shove? If he calls I probably shove on turn anyway.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
    Posted by beaneh
    we lose :(
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : If you bet you can get called by Ace high alot of the time, any smaller pocket pairs, and it allows him to try and bluff you. All of these we can get value from. Shoving can only get called by a 10, he cant bluff and he wont call us light.
    Posted by Cowgomoo
    True thats just how i would play it, am average a tourneys imo will go deep more often then not its just about picking the right spots, although lately mine have been unlucky and occasionally wrong time thats tournament poker for you. Think with the extra bet pre it actually weeds out any 2 as 3 betting although good at this spot will still get the strange call which we dont want
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : True thats just how i would play it, am average a tourneys imo will go deep more often then not its just about picking the right spots, although lately mine have been unlucky and occasionally wrong time thats tournament poker for you. Think with the extra bet pre it actually weeds out any 2 as 3 betting although good at this spot will still get the strange call which we dont want
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    why don't we want to get called by any 2 when we have JJ? 4x raising when the stacks are this short is far too much imo
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If I bet 1/2 pot bet or just over on flop is it the right move to fold to a shove? If he calls I probably shove on turn anyway.
    Posted by mattless


    no, 



    the whole point is by betting half pot on the flop (ie weak relative to pot size) it looks like we might fold if he shoves therefore increasing his range of hand that he continues with.

    by shoving if he folds all but a ten what is the point of that?


    and yb I thought the aim was to lose, that must be what i've been doing wrong these last two years :(
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  • mattlessmattless Member Posts: 194
    edited August 2010

    I agree with yb. I want a call from A10 in this spot so for this reason and my stack size 4xbb pre is too much, but can I get off it with a smaller bet on the flop, I'm not sure. I think I went out in 88th. 60 cashed, if I do bet 1/2 pot on flop and he shoves I might lay it down if I simply wanted to cash, but too win or good cash I think I still call.

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  • mattlessmattless Member Posts: 194
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : no,  the whole point is by betting half pot on the flop (ie weak relative to pot size) it looks like we might fold if he shoves therefore increasing his range of hand that he continues with. by shoving if he folds all but a ten what is the point of that? and yb I thought the aim was to lose, that must be what i've been doing wrong these last two years :(
    Posted by beaneh
    I agree he only calls my shove with a 10. So shove wrong, but are you saying 1/2 pot bet on flop and then call a shove, which means you don't think I can get away from it?
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited August 2010
    i shove this hand utg+1 with 18 BBs, what do you think of that then? lol
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect Member Posts: 452
    edited August 2010
    you're all too results orientated....i would bet half pot at most, this is a good flop for JJ and we want him to call with worse as yb says....its not a draw heavy board so dont need to bet to protect, we want to either get value from worse pp or induce some sp4z shove by A high so 1/4 - 1/2 pot is best and snap call a shove

    as yb says, overbet shoving you are onyl getting called by a ten usually unless they decide to be a hero

    without doubt long term u shud be betting much smaller to keep in worse
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape? : I agree he only calls my shove with a 10. So shove wrong, but are you saying 1/2 pot bet on flop and then call a shove, which means you don't think I can get away from it?
    Posted by mattless

    As I said here.....

    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    don't shove flop, bet half pot and cawl it off. if he has a ten so what
    Posted by beaneh

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2010

    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament.

    Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove.

    Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game.

    Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this.

    ul.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament. Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove. Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game. Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this. ul.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    I swear to god you must be on a windup, your stupidity is incredible.


    Of  1000 times that we raise pf and the flop comes paired, what proportion of those times will they have hit trips?

    Is there any chance they will stack off with hands other than Tx? are we beating those?

    if the answer to the last two questions are yes, then you need to work out what is the best in the long run, BECUASE THAT WAY YOU ARE MAKING THE BEST PLAY WITH THE INFORMATION YOU HAVE NOT WITH THE STUPID RESULTS ORIENTATED THINKING YOU EMPLOY.




    GAWD IM SO TILTED.
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  • CowgomooCowgomoo Member Posts: 749
    edited August 2010
    Deep breaths beaneh, count to 10.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    Deep breaths beaneh, count to 10.
    Posted by Cowgomoo

    1


    2


    3


    4


    feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek


    6

    7
    8


    aewrlj;anhlwej tawj'ethqawt a#t
    qaw
    ab eqwpr atqw
    ]a


    ]
    haerp thaewrt
    g
    awe[tg jaewrpgt ae
    w
    awer]thawerp gt





    TEN




    Thanks, needed that Mr Moo :)
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited August 2010
    In Response to Re: Does a 1/2 pot bet allow me too escape?:
    If he bets half the pot, then folds to a shove, he's still in the tournament. Im not good enough to do this myself, and wud bet, and call the resulting shove. Knowing you did "the right thing over time" is no consolation when your searching the lobby at 10-30 looking for another game. Wud be amazing if u cud get off the hand - but doubt many people, if anyone - who plays on sky wud be good enough to do this. ul.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    do you mean BAD?
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