In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : I think calling is better though if he's going to bluff at later streets. I don't get why you would raise in that spot considering you fold out all bluffs and only get called if your behind surely? Posted by BlackFish3
The hand is not strong enough to keep calling bluffs. PL can easily improve without us knowing. I'd rather be looking to take down the pot there and then or try and define PL's hand in order to take the betting lead and take PL off his marginal but ahead hand on a later street.
Like I said, maybe PA's intention was to play a stop and go and the flush draw encouraged him to slow down for a river card.
1) Pre-flop play: Hate the raise with AJ utg, horrid hand to play in that position on 9 handed table. call with 88 fine, call with 104s fine as getting nice price. If HL folds then PA might still defend his straddle as he thinks he can outplay Laak even OOP.
2) Flop play: PA is defo right to check, but once lederer folds, i think PA should get out of the way. Laak betting 16k into 20k on flop is fine. repping big pair, standard c bet. Lederer should raise.
3) Turn play: the K spades means Laak could still have AA, KK, but it really narrows his range and this could look like a 2nd barrel with over cards. I would prob lead here, to say oi matey, i got a strong hand... if i still get action i got the flush draw to back me up.
4) River play: Omg! what an amazing call, im dumb struck, must have had him on AJ!
In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : The hand is not strong enough to keep calling bluffs. PL can easily improve without us knowing. I'd rather be looking to take down the pot there and then or try and define PL's hand in order to take the betting lead and take PL off his marginal but ahead hand on a later street. Like I said, maybe PA's intention was to play a stop and go and the flush draw encouraged him to slow down for a river card. Posted by TommyD
The hand is perfectly strong enough to call bluffs against PL, because PL doesn't play such an aggressive game and so wont be putting PA to as many tough decisions.
Taking down the pot there and then when the pots are relatively small doesn't have as much merit, especially considering how deep they are and what can happen (ie he folds the worst hand or calls with better, yay).
Calling allows PA to see a turn card, see PL's action and re-**** his thoughts from the flop. Then he tries to make the best possible decision on the turn and plays a river, rinse repeat, pwn.
When PA has his decision on the flop there is $36,800 in the pot. Blinds are $400/$800 with $200 ante. It's not going to make hand of the week or anything but I'd be willing to bet to protect and take that one down.
In response to Lady Fingers, I'm talking about the flop play. At that point there were no big redraws. We don't know the spade is hitting the turn and if PL has a middle pair I would like to be able to try and take him off it. I don't think there was a tonne of showdown value on the flop to call all the streets.
When PA has his decision on the flop there is $36,800 in the pot. Blinds are $400/$800 with $200 ante. It's not going to make hand of the week or anything but I'd be willing to bet to protect and take that one down. In response to Lady Fingers, I'm talking about the flop play. At that point there were no big redraws. We don't know the spade is hitting the turn and if PL has a middle pair I would like to be able to try and take him off it. I don't think there was a tonne of showdown value on the flop to call all the streets. Posted by TommyD
The point is PL doesn't turn up with mid pairs here very much, either he has the best hand now (+ the chance to fold when sucked out on + the chance to call a bluff when PL missed + the chance PL improves and doesn't bet) or he can make the best hand and possibly get paid by one of PL's very strong hands.
In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : HI MY NAME IS COWARD FOLDERER I HAVE A SISTER WHO IS GOOD AT B JS I PLAY VERY TIGHT I PLAY VERY BAD BUT I HAVE A STAKE IN A MASSIVELY PROFITABLE PRETTY MUCH UNREGULATED SKANKATHON I CAN KEEP PLAYING BAD I'M LIFE ROLLED THROUGH THAT INVESTMENT LOL LOL LOL OMG THAT YOUNG GUY HAS 4 BET ME. I HAVE ACE AND KING PAIR DRAW. BETTER FLAT CALL AND ASSUME THAT HE 4BETS AK AND CHECKS IT DOWN BECAUSE THAT'S LIKELY. SURELY IF HE IS LOOSE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO FLAT THE 4 BET YOU CAN SHOVE U NUMPTY, IF ACE OR KING PAIR DRAW COMES IN YOU WONT WIN ANY MONEY ARRRRGHHGHHGHGHGHGHH YOU SUCK SO BAD COWARD DIEIEIEIEIEIEIE Posted by beaneh
This is pure gold, beaneh now my 2nd fave sky poster.
2) Flop play: PA is defo right to check, but once lederer folds, i think PA should get out of the way. Laak betting 16k into 20k on flop is fine. repping big pair, standard c bet. Lederer should raise. Posted by GREGHOGG
Lederer raising the flop in this spot would be truly awful imo - no way either PA or PL is continuing with worse (apart from maybe AhXh type hands which would have around 50% equity against him anyway) so all he does is fold out any bluffs/worse pairs that may continue on later streets or just gives some more monies away when he's behind. He's also probably not going to be getting any better hands to fold as PL doesnt cbet here with middle pairs all that much for pot control. So all in all its not a great spot to put in a raise.
And if you did raise in Lederer's position, would you be raising for value or just to 'ask a question'? Like just say you got 3 bet or PL called the raise how would you react then?
er... exactly. He gets them to fold lesser hands, which is the point- he's not sat with aces. When you have that vulnerable a hand, best to take it down while you're ahead- if you've got 10-9 on a 9 5 3 board, do you just sit and call in order to keep players involved with their hands? What do you do then when the turn hits a J/Q/K/A?
If he calls he has virtually no idea where he is, the only way a call is good is if he makes the decision he's reraising the turn, no matter what. Lederer should wise up to the fact that because he's got a reputation as such a supertight nit, players will take note when he starts raising postflop and be much more likely to respect it. I think you have to raise 8's on that board to at least find out what's happening, everyone folds- happy days. Someone raises, reassess. Someone calls, reassess on the turn. But put the big decisions on your opponents to start.
In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : Lederer raising the flop in this spot would be truly awful imo - no way either PA or PL is continuing with worse (apart from maybe AhXh type hands which would have around 50% equity against him anyway) so all he does is fold out any bluffs/worse pairs that may continue on later streets or just gives some more monies away when he's behind. He's also probably not going to be getting any better hands to fold as PL doesnt cbet here with middle pairs all that much for pot control. So all in all its not a great spot to put in a raise. And if you did raise in Lederer's position, would you be raising for value or just to 'ask a question'? Like just say you got 3 bet or PL called the raise how would you react then? Posted by yb
ok, so are you flatting or folding? flatting is ugh imo, folding is understandable, and with PA still in the hand i might wimp out too! but 88 is good there a lot, surely?
i am raising to ask the question. if i have a respected tight image i prob take down the pot if i think PL is standard C betting, which he is. If PL calls, and checks the turn, i fire big again (assuming PA has folded) if you get 3 bet you have to fold.
i know i only have 88, but a raise there looks strong, maybe like a set sometimes... The point is, as HL has position, and has rereaised the flop there PL really does need to have the goods to continue, so get the raise size right and you win a nice pot there and then.
In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : i am raising to ask the question. Posted by GREGHOGG
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
Not for me TommyD, again looks like a bluff 95% of the time imo
Phil Laak is a Nit, so cant see him checking a good hand at any point, maybe PA got lucky this time but i think he has put him on the exact hand the way he has played it
PA's flop play is fine because he can just c/r an blank turn and fire river and get PL to fold a huge amount of the time. infact he can lead just about any card except for Q/K/A and put PL in such a terrible spot even if he does have aces. he just hits one of the very few turns that give him equity and good implied odds vs PL.
if he checks the turn and bets the river he is repping a wider value range than he is by 3barreling. whether PA will believe him or not is another matter.
greghogg why would you raise the flop and bet the turn big
you will have to make it atleast 50k on the flop so the pot size on the turn is atleast 120k. you bet 100k and he jams on you. and you get to fold. i think stack sizes are around 250k at this point so you are going to have put 2/3 of your stack into the middle and then fold, wp.
there are times when betting for protection is good, this is not one of them.
In Response to Re: Line Check: Patrik Antonius vs Phil Laak : ok, so are you flatting or folding? flatting is ugh imo, folding is understandable, and with PA still in the hand i might wimp out too! but 88 is good there a lot, surely? i am raising to ask the question. if i have a respected tight image i prob take down the pot if i think PL is standard C betting, which he is. If PL calls, and checks the turn, i fire big again (assuming PA has folded) if you get 3 bet you have to fold. i know i only have 88, but a raise there looks strong, maybe like a set sometimes... The point is, as HL has position, and has rereaised the flop there PL really does need to have the goods to continue, so get the raise size right and you win a nice pot there and then. Posted by GREGHOGG
Are you turning your hand into a bluff then? I would much rather do this with a draw that has a chance of improving, rather than a decent hand with s/d value but which when you get any action from your raise you know is pretty worthless. All raising to ask the question with a marginal hand does is fold out worse and keep in better, so yes it means anyone with overcards loses the 25% equity they have against us, but by flat calling we can get more money from the 75% of time they dont hit if they're capable of continuing, and it also allows us to get off cheaper when they have a better hand depending on reads, what % of time we think they will double/triple barrel etc.
And deuces, calling the flop with 88 and then raising the turn is just unbelievably bad considering how polarised PL's range is there, what would a turn raise achieve?
The more I look at this hand the more I think that if PL adjusts his play v PA he can turn him into a mini ATM in the short term and turn this hero call -EV
Comments
2) Flop play: PA is defo right to check, but once lederer folds, i think PA should get out of the way. Laak betting 16k into 20k on flop is fine. repping big pair, standard c bet. Lederer should raise.
3) Turn play: the K spades means Laak could still have AA, KK, but it really narrows his range and this could look like a 2nd barrel with over cards. I would prob lead here, to say oi matey, i got a strong hand... if i still get action i got the flush draw to back me up.
4) River play: Omg! what an amazing call, im dumb struck, must have had him on AJ!
c'mon
Taking down the pot there and then when the pots are relatively small doesn't have as much merit, especially considering how deep they are and what can happen (ie he folds the worst hand or calls with better, yay).
Like when she said that there was absolutely no doubt Hellmuth was the best tournament player in the world, i made this sound.
lk;sdjasdfghsdfk;ghaksdfgljasdf'jgl;adfjg'adfljglhadgjfad'gjadfhdfal'hj'adfgja#
And if you did raise in Lederer's position, would you be raising for value or just to 'ask a question'? Like just say you got 3 bet or PL called the raise how would you react then?
If he calls he has virtually no idea where he is, the only way a call is good is if he makes the decision he's reraising the turn, no matter what. Lederer should wise up to the fact that because he's got a reputation as such a supertight nit, players will take note when he starts raising postflop and be much more likely to respect it. I think you have to raise 8's on that board to at least find out what's happening, everyone folds- happy days. Someone raises, reassess. Someone calls, reassess on the turn. But put the big decisions on your opponents to start.
i am raising to ask the question. if i have a respected tight image i prob take down the pot if i think PL is standard C betting, which he is. If PL calls, and checks the turn, i fire big again (assuming PA has folded) if you get 3 bet you have to fold.
i know i only have 88, but a raise there looks strong, maybe like a set sometimes... The point is, as HL has position, and has rereaised the flop there PL really does need to have the goods to continue, so get the raise size right and you win a nice pot there and then.
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
SUPER-SYSTEM IS NOT STILL RELEVANT
Phil Laak is a Nit, so cant see him checking a good hand at any point, maybe PA got lucky this time but i think he has put him on the exact hand the way he has played it
if he checks the turn and bets the river he is repping a wider value range than he is by 3barreling. whether PA will believe him or not is another matter.
greghogg why would you raise the flop and bet the turn big
you will have to make it atleast 50k on the flop so the pot size on the turn is atleast 120k. you bet 100k and he jams on you. and you get to fold. i think stack sizes are around 250k at this point so you are going to have put 2/3 of your stack into the middle and then fold, wp.
there are times when betting for protection is good, this is not one of them.
And deuces, calling the flop with 88 and then raising the turn is just unbelievably bad considering how polarised PL's range is there, what would a turn raise achieve?
Keep it going!