right idea or completely stupid??

BURNShurtz

hello people, been looking at my game abit and think that alot of the time im to passive so trying to be more aggressive with my chips. i played a hand earlier and just want some opinions on whether im betting the right amounts or im i just throwing chips away.
 

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
82rach	Small blind		10.00	10.00	2010.00
Jaydiso	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1940.00
	Your hole cards	K J
BURNShurtz	Raise		80.00	110.00	1890.00
sterac	Call		80.00	190.00	2130.00
clevski	Fold
82rach	Fold
Jaydiso	Fold
Flop
		Q 9 A
BURNShurtz	Bet		95.00	285.00	1795.00
sterac	Call		95.00	380.00	2035.00
Turn
		4
BURNShurtz	Bet		190.00	570.00	1605.00
sterac	Call		190.00	760.00	1845.00
River
		6
BURNShurtz	Bet		760.00	1520.00	845.00
sterac	Call		760.00	2280.00	1085.00
BURNShurtz	Show	K J
sterac	Show	Q J
sterac	Win	Pair of Queens	2280.00		3365.00

didn't put the player on an ace as there had been no raise from him pre/flop/turn. when the river comes i thought that if i check he would bet with anything so decided to put a bet in ( im thinking he has similar hand to me or small pair) his clock almost runs out then he makes a great call.
is there a point in this hand where i should of stopped betting??
any advise will be good
thanks

Dudeskin8

Preflop is fine. But on the flop if your gonna c-bet I'd make it 140-150 as it looks more convincing then half-pot. On the turn you bet half again but tbh he should probably fold at this point. Then on the river you finally decide to bet pot but by this point I think you just found someone who won't fold a pair.

Overall just make the flop bet bigger and he might fold but after that I'd just check fold the turn/river.

YOUNG_GUN

Make bet bigger on flop & turn, if still called would shutdown only going to get a fold from a complete bluff 

DOHHHHHHH

I'd have stopped on the flop! lol

Its probably the worst flop for your hand, yeh you have the gut-shot, but it's all black, with an ace, its ugh.

Check fold the flop.

I was, and probably still am, guilty of c betting too often (I learnt that by posting loads of hands on here, so keep doing it)......

A line that sticks in my head alot was when Lol raise said "why are you c betting the flop with no equity in the hand" - so yeh you're drawing pretty thin here, so give it up, if he checks behind and your gut-shot slots in, then happy days.

Preserve your stack, find a better situation to win chips.

If you hate giving up, fire the flop 3/4 pot, give yourself as much fold equity as possible, then definitely slow down on the turn.

Having continued on the turn, I guess you're looking for either a 10 or a spade on the river, giving you the nuts, or a great chance to represent the flush, but the river is a total blank, so if he's calling turn, he's probably calling river (unless u read him for a flush draw, in which case your bet doesn't need to be so big as he missed.....)

BURNShurtz

thanks people, good advise. looking at the hand now i understand what you all mean, best way to learn tho.

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

I'd have stopped on the flop! lol Its probably the worst flop for your hand, yeh you have the gut-shot, but it's all black, with an ace, its ugh. Check fold the flop. I was, and probably still am, guilty of c betting too often (I learnt that by posting loads of hands on here, so keep doing it)...... A line that sticks in my head alot was when Lol raise said "why are you c betting the flop with no equity in the hand" - so yeh you're drawing pretty thin here, so give it up, if he checks behind and your gut-shot slots in, then happy days. Preserve your stack, find a better situation to win chips. If you hate giving up, fire the flop 3/4 pot, give yourself as much fold equity as possible, then definitely slow down on the turn. Having continued on the turn, I guess you're looking for either a 10 or a spade on the river, giving you the nuts, or a great chance to represent the flush, but the river is a total blank, so if he's calling turn, he's probably calling river (unless u read him for a flush draw, in which case your bet doesn't need to be so big as he missed.....)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

just a quick question, if id made a bigger bet on flop and got called then checked the turn and the other player also checks should i then check the river or is it worth betting as i personaly would see his check on the turn as weak? sorry if this question seems pointless dohhhhhhhh

YOUNG_GUN

If you bet bigger on flop, depends would probably try to check down. thing is once you have checked the turn not worth betting river as this is general line a bluff takes bet, check, bet imo. if you think the villain will lay down some hands then bet, flop & then bet turn, if they still calling wouldn't 3 barrell

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

If you bet bigger on flop, depends would probably try to check down. thing is once you have checked the turn not worth betting river as this is general line a bluff takes bet, check, bet imo. if you think the villain will lay down some hands then bet, flop & then bet turn, if they still calling wouldn't 3 barrell
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

thanks, il try i put some different hands and situations on here so i can pick your brains some more. 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid?? : just a quick question, if id made a bigger bet on flop and got called then checked the turn and the other player also checks should i then check the river or is it worth betting as i personaly would see his check on the turn as weak? sorry if this question seems pointless dohhhhhhhh
Posted by BURNShurtz

This is another thing I'm guilty of, when I c bet a flop, then give up on the turn but see a check behind.......I just can't help firing again on the river. 

I think the key is you need to tell a consistent story of what hand you may have.

You might well bet the flop with a flush draw, and then check the turn to try and control the pot when you miss, so if the river brings in the draw, it's very tempting to go ahead and fire again to represent the hand.

On this board though, as I said above, the river is probably the least scary card for your opponent. It hasn't really hit any hand, it could have made a weird 2 pair hand, but it's unlikely.......so It's not gonna get him off.

1 move I really like and use alot, is the overbet......

I think the only way you get the guy to fold in this hand is to jam the river. I use it alot, with the nuts, and with air, as long as your opponent knows you over-bet the nuts as well as on bluffs, then you can use it to get him off marginal holdings. Its also great to advertise these bluffs, then pull the move off next time with the nuts.....Its more for a cash game where you play with the same players alot, so you can build an image, ...... but If you have the heart/courage/bottle to pull the trigger, and you trust your read that your opponent really is weak and/or has missed his draw, then go for the big shove....

Durrrrr uses it alot, and his timing seems to be spot on, people pay him off really light, but he also gets them off good hands.......

It's such a powerful move, and you need to trust your read, but it's one worth having in ur arsenal !!!

Batkin88

If u didnt put him on the ace pre i say check/raise the flop and rep the ace on the turn and river

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid?? : This is another thing I'm guilty of, when I c bet a flop, then give up on the turn but see a check behind.......I just can't help firing again on the river.  I think the key is you need to tell a consistent story of what hand you may have. You might well bet the flop with a flush draw, and then check the turn to try and control the pot when you miss, so if the river brings in the draw, it's very tempting to go ahead and fire again to represent the hand. On this board though, as I said above, the river is probably the least scary card for your opponent. It hasn't really hit any hand, it could have made a weird 2 pair hand, but it's unlikely.......so It's not gonna get him off. 1 move I really like and use alot, is the overbet...... I think the only way you get the guy to fold in this hand is to jam the river. I use it alot, with the nuts, and with air, as long as your opponent knows you over-bet the nuts as well as on bluffs, then you can use it to get him off marginal holdings. Its also great to advertise these bluffs, then pull the move off next time with the nuts.....Its more for a cash game where you play with the same players alot, so you can build an image, ...... but If you have the heart/courage/bottle to pull the trigger, and you trust your read that your opponent really is weak and/or has missed his draw, then go for the big shove.... Durrrrr uses it alot, and his timing seems to be spot on, people pay him off really light, but he also gets them off good hands....... It's such a powerful move, and you need to trust your read, but it's one worth having in ur arsenal !!!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

like you say, that river card was a complete brick. at the moment im just making sure that im entering a pot with a raise rather than calling and making any bets after that 3/4 to pot size. see how i go

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

If u didnt put him on the ace pre i say check/raise the flop and rep the ace on the turn and river
Posted by Batkin88

hi, yeah did try. think the main problem was the small raise on the flop, bet bigger he may fold there n then.

Batkin88

and also jam river rather than the half stack bet as it looks weak, but i like the play lol i got a thread on this type of play in the clinic some good tips on there

yb

Bet ~140 on flop, c/f further streets imo.

I would definitely be cbetting this kind of flop though.

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

and also jam river rather than the half stack bet as it looks weak, but i like the play lol i got a thread on this type of play in the clinic some good tips on there
Posted by Batkin88

when i look over the hand i think player would prob have foled to all-in move. but i shouldnt have got that far anyway. its all  learning

BURNShurtz

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

Bet ~140 on flop, c/f further streets imo. I would definitely be cbetting this kind of flop though.
Posted by yb

hi, yeah i think everyone agrees that my bet on flop should of been bigger..

Batkin88

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

Bet ~140 on flop, c/f further streets imo. I would definitely be cbetting this kind of flop though.
Posted by yb

Would you ever consider check raising this type of flop??

yb

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid??:

In Response to Re: right idea or completely stupid?? : Would you ever consider check raising this type of flop??
Posted by Batkin88

No because I wouldn't play an ace that way. I don't think you need to have a c/ring range on the flop at all actually when you're the pf aggressor. Like if you really think a guy is floating flops too much you can bet flop then c/r turn (or c/c if you have marginal s/d value) as that way you get more value.

I don't think c/ring the flop is going to make a random any more likely to fold an ace though so I'd just rather bet out then give up if I meet any resistance. This probably gets most people to fold a pair <Q anyway.

Batkin88

makes sense cheers