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behind here?

iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
edited October 2010 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
_hustle_ Small blind  40.00 40.00 2540.00
gozzip Big blind  80.00 120.00 7940.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
xx Call  80.00 200.00 7830.00
iBLUFF Raise  240.00 440.00 6665.00
mudmanmonk Fold     
_hustle_ Fold     
gozzip Fold     
xx Call  160.00 600.00 7670.00
Flop
   
  • K
  • 3
  • 10
     
xxBet  300.00 900.00 7370.00
iBLUFF Raise  600.00 1500.00 6065.00
xx Call  300.00 1800.00 7070.00
Turn
   
  • 9
     
xxBet  240.00 2040.00 6830.00
iBLUFF Call  240.00 2280.00 5825.00
River
   
  • 8
     
xx Bet  640.00 2920.00 6190.00
iBLUFF Fold     
xxMuck     
xx Win  2280.00  8470.00
xxReturn  640.00 0.00 9110.00
i min raised on he flop to see if he had K but when he flats i dont no were i am in the hand , the turn i was just calling for a set or str8 tbh so when i miss both on river is this the right fold oppinions would be welcome

Comments

  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    edit *and as it pretty early in torney i have no reads on my opponint* edit
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited October 2010
    Why did you raise flop?
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited October 2010
    Raise more pre to 350ish. Flop you could just call and see if he gives up on turn and then try and get cheap showdown. On river here I probably fold as it looks value-bettish but I might be wrong.
  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    Why did you raise flop?
    Posted by yb
    to see were i was in the hand i no now it was a bad raise i needed to raise bigger if i was gonna raise.
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited October 2010
    so your thought process before raising  was "if he folds to my raise, i had the best hand. if he reraises me he has the best hand. if he flat calls i dont know what to do in a bloated pot with a marginal hand"??
  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    so your thought process before raising  was "if he folds to my raise, i had the best hand. if he reraises me he has the best hand. if he flat calls i dont know what to do in a bloated pot with a marginal hand"??
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    no i knew he wernt folding to my min raise i knew i should of raised more but if he 3bets me obv i belive i wont have best hand..
  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited October 2010

    TBH Bluff, I aint folding the River as played, your probably beat but I can't fold after commiting so much - but I am a fish and call to see what he's playing - put it in my notes if he's a new player and use it for future reference.

    I aint min raising flop either, I want to play small pot poker here and get to the River as cheaply as possible if your worried about the K.

    Pre flop, raise more - let the limper pay to see a flop - he obviously wants to peel off a flop with a "pretty looking hand" so make him pay :)  

  • ricoramb03ricoramb03 Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2010
    Raise more pre? Raise more on flop?...
    As you haven't can you raise the turn? If he flats a rasise on the turn and then bets out again, the board is so messy you probably have enough info to fold his bet on the river.
    To answer the question your probably behind, but as Dylan said, theres no way you can fold river now, call with a tiny percentage your ahead, but also call and note what he had and how he played.
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited October 2010
    What does a bigger flop raise achieve ricoramb?
  • ricoramb03ricoramb03 Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    What does a bigger flop raise achieve ricoramb?
    Posted by yb

    Just think the guy could called a min raise on the flop with 2nd pair on that board, make it bigger and he calls then maybe he really does have top pair, then slow down?
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited October 2010
    lol so basically you want to pick a raise size where you fold out everything that you beat and probably never fold out better? so you aren't getting any more value when you're in front and lose more chips when you're behind.

    why not just flat the donk bet to widen his range? that way we allow him to continue with worse more often and also get to a cheap showdown so we limit our losses when we're behind.
  • ricoramb03ricoramb03 Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2010
    lol so you just want to keep calling off more chips in the hope that you get to a showdown ahead with the chance that the donk was behind when he was betting into you but with flatting him you gave him the chance to catch up on the turn or river at a price hes comfortable with?
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited October 2010
    Yeah if he has 2nd pair raising and getting him off the hand makes him lose the 20% or w/e equity he has against us which is obviously a good thing. But I'd much prefer to give him a chance to catch up rather than potentially playing for a much bigger pot with a very marginal hand. And if he does have 2nd pair by flatting we allow him to continue betting into us ui (which he well may do as blocker bets/mistaken value bets) and allows us to re-evaluate further streets depending on the turn/river card, the size of the villains bet, barreling frequencies etc.

    And you aren't necessarily calling off more chips by flatting 3 streets either. For example in this hand, work out what a reasonable raise size would be on the flop then work out how many chips it would have cost to call down. This isn't including the times you don't listen/believe the 'answer to your question'.
  • ricoramb03ricoramb03 Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2010
    I just dont really like calling off chips... Our QQ is beaten by so much on the flop and then more on the turn and river, I don't think QQ is ahead on the river and i feel it would cost me more by calling off chips until a showdown than it will raising on the flop and re-evaluating the rest of the streets. Could your process be more effective in cash than tourny?
  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    ps. i forgot to add this before and it could be the most imprtant thing it was a freeroll...
  • offshootoffshoot Member Posts: 1,049
    edited October 2010
    In Response to behind here?:
    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance _hustle_ Small blind   40.00 40.00 2540.00 gozzip Big blind   80.00 120.00 7940.00   Your hole cards Q Q       xx  Call   80.00 200.00 7830.00 iBLUFF Raise   240.00 440.00 6665.00 mudmanmonk Fold         _hustle_ Fold         gozzip Fold         xx  Call   160.00 600.00 7670.00 Flop     K 3 10       xx Bet   300.00 900.00 7370.00 iBLUFF Raise   600.00 1500.00 6065.00 xx  Call   300.00 1800.00 7070.00 Turn     9       xx Bet   240.00 2040.00 6830.00 iBLUFF Call   240.00 2280.00 5825.00 River     8       xx  Bet   640.00 2920.00 6190.00 iBLUFF Fold         xx Muck         xx  Win   2280.00   8470.00 xx Return   640.00 0.00 9110.00 i min raised on he flop to see if he had K but when he flats i dont no were i am in the hand , the turn i was just calling for a set or str8 tbh so when i miss both on river is this the right fold oppinions would be welcome
    Posted by iBLUFF
    so what did the minraise actually achieve?

    i would suggest calling flop and seeing what he does on the turn gives you just as much information if not more and is cheaper.

    IF YOU ARE UNSURE IF YOU HAVE THE BEST HAND ITS PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE THE POT EVEN BIGGER.
  • joegray23joegray23 Member Posts: 9
    edited October 2010
    From the pre flop call, if he has the K he is only likely to have it with a T or better but alternatively he just as easily has pocket Js -> 8s. For me I am flat calling the turn and folding to the second barrell on the turn.

    I see this so much and make the mistake myself I admit, if your pocket pair doesnt hit set or is and over pair on the flop ITS JUST A PAIR. Ask yourself this, what are you doing with a 10 in your hand there? You have second pair, thats a throw away when someone starts c-betting you.

    If you are raising here its on the turn IMO, his second shot at your is much weaker, he obviously thinks JT is in your range and does not want to commit too much incase you have hit the straight, flat call on flop makes this straight draw more likely too.

    Just because you get lost and have no idea what your villain has, doesnt mean you cant bet what he thinks you have.
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    ps. i forgot to add this before and it could be the most imprtant thing it was a freeroll...
    Posted by iBLUFF
    Defo insta snap call now

    btw, bet a LOT more pre, why not shove lol
  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    In Response to behind here? : so what did the minraise actually achieve? i would suggest calling flop and seeing what he does on the turn gives you just as much information if not more and is cheaper. IF YOU ARE UNSURE IF YOU HAVE THE BEST HAND ITS PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE THE POT EVEN BIGGER.
    Posted by offshoot
    yeah now i no the min raise was pretty horible, i think i should of flated the call aswell or raised bigger.. thanks for the advice
  • iBLUFFiBLUFF Member Posts: 1,244
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: behind here?:
    In Response to Re: behind here? : Defo insta snap call now btw, bet a LOT more pre, why not shove lol
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    lol i prob would of got a call coz it was a freeroll... but he limped utg wihat hand would he be doing that with?
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