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Interesting Call and Discussion

EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
edited October 2010 in The Poker Clinic
I'm not posting this as a bad beat, because it really isn't. It's the discussion that followed, that I'm interested in, and the circumstances. It was the Open last night, and myself and the other player in the hand were in the top 10 with about 80 left. Blinds were 400/800, and we were sitting pretty. Here's the hand..
chilli8729 Small blind  400.00 400.00 14065.00
Eyeman Big blind  800.00 1200.00 14427.50
  Your hole cards
  • 9
  • 9
     
Macaroon2 Fold     
Villain Call  800.00 2000.00 20340.00
thatsplent Fold     
vinyodo22 Fold     
chilli8729 Call  400.00 2400.00 13665.00
Eyeman All-in  14427.50 16827.50 0.00
Villain Call  14427.50 31255.00 5912.50
chilli8729 Fold     
Eyeman Show
  • 9
  • 9
   
Villain Show
  • Q
  • J
   
Flop
   
  • A
  • 10
  • 5
     
Turn
   
  • K
     
River
   
  • 3
     
Villain Win Straight to the Ace 31255.00  37167.50
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Comments

  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited October 2010
    Now, after the hand, I questioned his call (effectively for his tourney) and he said it was spot on. There was not a lot of table history of mad play. I think 2 limpers into my 9's the shove is ok. Obviously, I might run into slow played aces etc, but I can't believe he calls. Opinions?
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited October 2010
    I dont like your shove to be fair, saying that its a terrible call by him how he is happy after that is only cos he hit.

    by spot on he wants to get all in pre with average hand even if overs thats terrible what if you had AK? could easily have or AQ etc hands which dominate him.

    wjy did you feel the need to put 18 bb roughly(unsure just quickly in my head so probably wrong) usually only will get a call with hand that dominates you would have prefered if you raised, he re-raised and you shoved not open shoving risk/reward not there imo

    edit- wow spot on with no calculator although being picky blind was in so effectively shoving 17bb's to win what 2?? thoughts EM?
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited October 2010
    How long had you been on the same table with this guy?

    He may be thinking that you would be pushing with any 2 or even a small pair at this stage with 17 Big blinds left. If his thinking was correct then he wouldn't be much behind by calling with this hand. If villain was thinking you were pushing with a small pair, then he knows has a lot more outs than you do.

    His call looks a little risky to me and i'm pretty sure if it were me, I would have been looking for a better spot, however, if he had a read on you he knows he may be going in slightly behind but thinks it was worth the risk.
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  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited October 2010
    The reason I shoved was I was happy to pick up the blinds and limpers with that average hand. I (rightly) gauged that they had nothing better, and really didn't want to see a flop.
    If I raise, you can be pretty sure he flat calls, and with the overcards, I'm dead in the water. Basically, it's the worst call i think I've ever seen on Sky (and there have been a few bad ones, trust me), yet he seemed to think it was good.
    It comes under the heading, "can i play you every week". :-)
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  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited October 2010
    To answer Trev, I hadn't been at the table long. We had both been all in against each other (when we both had the nuts to "lol"s all round), but that was it. Most of the table had decent stacks, and i didn't judge it a mad table. I had plenty of BBs (17 according to Young 'un) - it certainly wasn't the shove-fest the Open can be at times.
    If I am ever at a table and see that all-in play, I'm pretty sure the guy has AK and wants to take the pot down against a small pair, or rubbish.
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  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited October 2010
    Just to clarify, we were both in the top 10 of a field of 80 at the time. There was really no pressure on either stack. The rest of the table were lower.
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  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited October 2010
    I don't mind the shove here really, there's almost 20% of your stack to be picked up uncontested due to 2 limpers at the 400/800 level!! The call is shocking in my opinion and so is the limp in the first place. How can the villain ever think they're in front here? Ps I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the worse call ever but it is pretty shocking if he's sitting top 10/80 remaining in the Open.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited October 2010
    In Response to Re: Interesting Call and Discussion:
    Just to clarify, we were both in the top 10 of a field of 80 at the time. There was really no pressure on either stack. The rest of the table were lower.
    Posted by Eyeman

    thats why cant understand you putting so much on the line? his call is terrible but dont like your move either mate, 3x bb could have been fine here if good flop can then continue if bad then dont simples , thats just how i would have played it but then again you got a silly call which on the face of it i'd rather not be racing for my stack when the bubble hasnt burst(although i need to take note of this one lol)
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited October 2010
    great shove awful cawl.
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited October 2010
    shove is fine with limpers there, last thing you want is to make a smallish raise and someone decides to get creative with AQ/KQ etc and shove, leaving you with a tough decision... or as you say, flat and then leave you in pain with 2 overs on the board. There's plenty in the pot at that stage to add to your stack, if you run into 10's+ then so be it.

    Calling an allin with that stack with JQ is so horrible I can't imagine it. That he thinks it was a good call is just unbelievable, JQ is dominated by sooooo many hands it's not funny, the only hand you shove with he has a decent shot against is suited connectors, J10 or worse. Any pair, any strong Q/K/A and he's in all kinds of trouble.

    Vul EM, played great, got donked out. That's poker for you sometimes.
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited October 2010
    fwiw having 20bbs does not equal to sitting pretty even if you are in the top 10 out of 80.

    villain is terrible

    that is all
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  • SHANXTASHANXTA Member Posts: 1,507
    edited October 2010
    +1 to mr bean, deuces and lol_raise, can't add anymore
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  • SolarCarroSolarCarro Member Posts: 2,273
    edited October 2010
    I agree Graham

    Great shove and dreadful call (but not the worst I have ever seen)

    Dave
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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited October 2010
    I don't like the shove TBH.

    It really makes your holding look weak.  It's screams 'I have a mid pair, I'm ahead of you all now but I don't want a race.'  You can make it 2500 - 3000 to get the same amount of folds as you would to a shove.  At least then you can choose if you wish to represent the A with a C-Bet or get away from the hand still with a decent stack.

    However, it's a truly terrible call from the villain.  He's probably thinking 'that shoves looks like pocket 3s, let's gamble.'
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited October 2010

    The shove to pick up the limpers is fine. the call plain awful.

    However, i am just wondering what you do with AA/KK in this same spot Graham?

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  • EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited October 2010
    With the AA or KK, I always raise, prob to about 3K at those blinds. Yes, I might not get any action, but I hate to limp with a premium (historic reasons)
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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited October 2010
    People call shoves with KQ/QJ/JT cos they iz fishes.

    People also limp call shoves with 55/66/77/88

    Your shove is fine, u win some, u lose some, sometimes u dominate. I also get angry when people call with Q hi and win but just the way it goes.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited October 2010

    Similar one here just got me.

    Theres some real, un-discovered talent on sky poker.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    vinyodo22 Small blind  50.00 50.00 1980.00
    DOHHHHHHH Big blind  100.00 150.00 1475.00
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • A
    		     
    HUNTER24 Fold     
    67lisbon Fold     
    deanom1245 Call  100.00 250.00 3835.00
    vinyodo22 Fold     
    DOHHHHHHH All-in  1475.00 1725.00 0.00
    deanom1245 Call  1475.00 3200.00 2360.00
    DOHHHHHHH Show
    • Q
    • A
    		   
    deanom1245 Show
    • 10
    • Q
    		   
    Flop
       
    • J
    • 2
    • 9
    		     
    Turn
       
    • 4
    		     
    River
       
    • K
    		     
    deanom1245 Win Straight to the King 3200.00  5560.00
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited October 2010
    These types of calls are consistantly happening in MTT Tournies.

    Are any cash table players up against this type of action or is it predominantly MTT's?

    4 x BB raises, Pot bets & shoves are not getting the respect they deserve in this type of tourny. I'm pretty sure if the value of their chip count was in pounds this type of play would be less frequent. It seems that just because these are low stake buy ins and the chips have no real monetary value the standard of play can be somewhat bemusing.

    How can we address this type of problem in mtt tournies?
     
    Any ideas guys? 
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited October 2010
    lol its as if you want to play against good players


    the reason this doesnt happen in cash is because people are normally />20bb deep
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