Can you find a fold here?

DeucesLive

Final stages of open, last 11 I think- due to blinds, no one's particularly safe, but I think I was 2nd or 3rd, with like 20-25bbs or so, which is ample to coast to the final table with the odd steal. Question is, what do you do when you come head to head with the other chipleader at your table, with what looks like a very solid hand? Hadn't been any real aggro, so what would you do here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
theroseman	Small blind		3000.00	3000.00	36248.00
funkybunch	Big blind		6000.00	9000.00	101961.75
	Your hole cards	Q A
percival09	Fold
lyonsbob06	Raise		18000.00	27000.00	132165.00
DeucesLive	Call		18000.00	45000.00	129240.00
theroseman	Fold
funkybunch	Fold
Flop
		2 Q 5
lyonsbob06	All-in		132165.00	177165.00	0.00
DeucesLive	????

KAM99

Honestly I think I might find it hard not to call him. Mainly as if he has flopped huge why would he want to scare you off with a shove like that? If I was going to say what hand he is on I'd be thinking maybe the flush draw or a medium pocket pair maybe. I can't see him making this play with AQ, KK, AA or any kind of set. I guess its possible, but unless I'd seen him making this type of play before I'd tend to go on my gut that he is going for the strong bet when wieakish,

Hard choice though like you say as you do have the chips to lay down and still make a good run at the bigger money. So I don't have issue with folding, but I'd still be feeling like in this spot you're ahead unless he really had a big hand and for some reason just didn't want to take more of your stack.

percival09

Unlucky! I Demolished you in this tournament NOT, losing to JJ a couple of hands later! Like i told you as it happened i think, nothing you could have done, I would have struggled not to shove pre tbh lol! 

DeucesLive

Well, all my instincts at the time were screaming at me something wasn't right, but I almost felt I had no choice but to call. I'm just curious as to whether a) you can fold here, or b) whether it's the right thing to do. Obviously on this occasion it would, but in general- can you fold a hand of this strength, when AA is very unlikely, and the only hands you're losing to are KK, a set of Qs (again, highly unlikely) and a set of 5's or 2's played extremely peculiarly? No 2 pair options really, so as far as I can tell you're ahead of the majority of his range(KQ/QJ/JJ and lower, only really KK to worry about)- but is it foldable still? It's not like I'm struggling for chips.

On the other hand, call and win and you're completely set to go for the win, with more than double anyone else's stack...

percival09

I think if he didn't shove all in post flop before you had time to act, you would have done the same, so it would have gone in either way. you were just unlucky it came Q high. Although you were were 2nd or 3rd in chips, like we were saying on the night, everyone was relatively short considering the blinds, so I think you had to do what you did. Yeah you could be behind to kings or aces, but he could easily have had QK or something along them lines, or even JJ or 1010 thinking the one over card isn't bad for his hand. 

pr1nnyraid

this is a call

but his range also included alot of NFD's as well

KAM99

In Response to Re: Can you find a fold here?:

Well, all my instincts at the time were screaming at me something wasn't right, but I almost felt I had no choice but to call. I'm just curious as to whether a) you can fold here, or b) whether it's the right thing to do. Obviously on this occasion it would, but in general- can you fold a hand of this strength, when AA is very unlikely, and the only hands you're losing to are KK, a set of Qs (again, highly unlikely) and a set of 5's or 2's played extremely peculiarly? No 2 pair options really, so as far as I can tell you're ahead of the majority of his range(KQ/QJ/JJ and lower, only really KK to worry about)- but is it foldable still? It's not like I'm struggling for chips. On the other hand, call and win and you're completely set to go for the win, with more than double anyone else's stack...
Posted by DeucesLive

Still think what I did with my original post. Even if in this case you were behind to a big hand, I'd think in most cases this happens where its a fairly big overbet all in he is shoving hoping to make you fold. With a fair dry board I'd be expecting most cases if I make this call to see a medium PP or the flush draw.

Odd if he did have a big hand though, as the all in shove is likely the only thing that might avoid you losing all your chips in this spot, as if he checks you likely bet and can get pretty pot committed by turn. If he Cbets you are not likely to fold TPTK and may even shove yourself if he does.

Still thats my thoughts, but its a game of opinions and different ways to play hands, thats what makes it such a fun game after all.

pryce6

This is ridiculous. How would you ever even think about folding? Also how are u losing to that bet? I'm guessing Kings?

DeucesLive

(yes, he had kings)

Gvien the stack sizes and stage of the tournament, I don't know how you can not consider folding- whether or not you do or not, I don't think you should ever snap call your entire stack when you're sitting comfortably in 2nd/3rd of 11 with just top pair. I honestly can't see him making this move with a set, but I also would find an underpair unlikely too- I mean, why on earth would you risk your own life with what could clearly be drawing very, very thin? My thoughts were simple- he's either got KQ (didn't even think KJ was likely) in which case I'm ahead, the nut flush draw, in which case I'm ahead, or kings, in which case I'm behind. The bet was one of two things- weakness, and wanted maximum fold equity but with outs should he be called, or a clear indication that he has the best hand now, but it's vulnerable and wants it shut down without any further action.

Ultimately, I went with option a, though my gut told me otherwise, but it left me wondering whether or not the signs were strong enough for me to get away- I think over time the call probably has to be the best option.

pryce6

I'm sorry but I snap here. The word fold doesn't even enter my head. You have top top and you are head of 99% of the hands he does this with. Win the hand and you are monster chip leader. When he turns over the one hand he could ever do this with (even that is a weird line) just sigh and move onto the next tournament.

YOUNG_GUN

i do same deuces wont like his all in but still going in here, reason i dont like his all in is because how much he has to the pot and how much you both had behind but still calling everyday here

Wilhelm

In Response to Re: Can you find a fold here?:

(yes, he had kings) Gvien the stack sizes and stage of the tournament, I don't know how you can not consider folding- whether or not you do or not, I don't think you should ever snap call your entire stack when you're sitting comfortably in 2nd/3rd of 11 with just top pair. I honestly can't see him making this move with a set, but I also would find an underpair unlikely too- I mean, why on earth would you risk your own life with what could clearly be drawing very, very thin? My thoughts were simple- he's either got KQ (didn't even think KJ was likely) in which case I'm ahead, the nut flush draw, in which case I'm ahead, or kings, in which case I'm behind. The bet was one of two things- weakness, and wanted maximum fold equity but with outs should he be called, or a clear indication that he has the best hand now, but it's vulnerable and wants it shut down without any further action. Ultimately, I went with option a, though my gut told me otherwise, but it left me wondering whether or not the signs were strong enough for me to get away- I think over time the call probably has to be the best option.
Posted by DeucesLive

Doesn't this answer your question?  With all the money weighted in the top 3 places, I can't fold.  I would think about it if it were a much larger tournament.