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Was I Right to Fold?

DollieDollie Member Posts: 706
edited November 2010 in The Poker Clinic
Just sat down at cash table (10/20p) with max buy in.  First hand, I'm in BB, I have AKos.  Utg folds, next bets £1 (5xBB), is called at cut off and Button raises all in for £23+.  SB folds, so it is now up to me.  My first instinct is to call, but then what are the 2 guys behind, who have both 5 betted, going to do?  I fold.  First raiser calls the all in so we have £45+ in the middle.  I was surprised when they both turned over AQ suited for a split pot,  I was expecting at least one BIG pair!  My AK would have taken it so I could have trebled up.  Reflecting on it I still think I made the right decision, do you?

Comments

  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited November 2010
    Hi Gordon

    In an mtt, its a defo fold, but in cash... I think its probably a call if we are rolled up properly for the level.

    will wait for more views...
  • JONONZIEJONONZIE Member Posts: 367
    edited November 2010
    Response to Was I Right to Fold?:
    Just sat down at cash table (10/20p) with max buy in.  First hand, I'm in BB, I have AKos.  Utg folds, next bets £1 (5xBB), is called at cut off and Button raises all in for £23+.  SB folds, so it is now up to me.  My first instinct is to call, but then what are the 2 guys behind, who have both 5 betted, going to do?  I fold.  First raiser calls the all in so we have £45+ in the middle.  I was surprised when they both turned over AQ suited for a split pot,  I was expecting at least one BIG pair!  My AK would have taken it so I could have trebled up.  Reflecting on it I still think I made the right decision, do you?
    Posted by Dollie
    Im with you dollie I fold thinking at least on big pair and a possible 4 cards to avoid or hit myself  but then Im not a cash player (see moved up to 15 30 in the poker clinic)
  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited November 2010
    take this or leave it imo, i would expect to be behind to a pp, the guy who shoves is obviously pretty bad so im sure there would be better less variances spots to take his money
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited November 2010
    I'm never folding this readless, not quite sure how 20nl plays on here though.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Was I Right to Fold?:
    Just sat down at cash table (10/20p) with max buy in.  First hand, I'm in BB, I have AKos.  Utg folds, next bets £1 (5xBB), is called at cut off and Button raises all in for £23+.  SB folds, so it is now up to me.  My first instinct is to call, but then what are the 2 guys behind, who have both 5 betted, going to do?  I fold.  First raiser calls the all in so we have £45+ in the middle.  I was surprised when they both turned over AQ suited for a split pot,  I was expecting at least one BIG pair!  My AK would have taken it so I could have trebled up.  Reflecting on it I still think I made the right decision, do you?
    Posted by Dollie

    What hands do you think button jams all in with?

    what hands do you think the guy who open raised would call this jam with if you have also called?

    once you guess these you can see whether it's a good or bad call. 

    it doesn't matter what came on the flop because you are making your decision before community cards come out. Don't get blinkered by the results they aren't what matter.
  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited November 2010
    Tough spot... the original raiser could have anything though, I wouldn't be massively concerned against him- AK figures to be ahead of his range. The caller too, no concern. The shover seems hugely like a pp, semi strong- that shove with AQ is just nuts, note him.

    If you're rolled for it, ****... I call. Against AA/KK you're in a horrendous spot, but against anything else- you're getting better than 2/1 on a call whatever happens and you're just the wrong side of a 50/50 at worst. You're crushing any AQ/AJ hands that might want to come along. I think AK is too strong to fold here if one of them turns over AA/KK, then cold deck, nh wp. I'd be more concerned if button makes a weaker reraise, like to 3 or so. Does he REALLY jam with AA or KK? Very, very unlikely.
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited November 2010
    Considering this is your first hand at the table i'd fold. if you had notes that the guy likes to get jiggy then snap his arm off !
  • PistoPisto Member Posts: 12
    edited November 2010
    Call, call, call. The button wouldn't jam with AA or KK, rather flat (slow playing) or a smaller raise to get value. Therefore I don't think you're ever worse than a coin flip with the button. As for the initial raiser, the 5x raise could be perceived as a weak, protective sort of raise. However as you have no reads it could just be be his standard raise, so he is the one you have to be wary of. However I like to get my money in the middle especially in cash play, so I cross my fingers and call.
  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold?:
    I'm never folding this readless, not quite sure how 20nl plays on here though.
    Posted by yb
    Really?

    Against a player who judging by this shove looks pretty rubbish, there are surely better spots to get your cash in against them than now? 
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold?:
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold? : Really? Against a player who judging by this shove looks pretty rubbish, there are surely better spots to get your cash in against them than now? 
    Posted by CLIOKID
    There probably are better spots against him, but who's to say how long his money is going to be around for? If I think a call is +EV (which imo readless this is) then I'm making it regardless of how small the edge is. If we lose we can reload and win it back :)

    It takes something pretty special to make me fold AK 100bbs deep.
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold?:
    Considering this is your first hand at the table i'd fold. if you had notes that the guy likes to get jiggy then snap his arm off !
    Posted by beaneh


    lololololololl do you know how hard it is to get dealt an ace and a king and now you want to fold it
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited November 2010
    I personally think its a good fold, against 2 people AK isn't as strong eg. maybe they both have pocket pairs, possible one has the same aswell. with action as played it depends whether you fancy a race/gamble at best case and depends how light they are shoving & calling your shove

    tough one but good fold sir
  • thejudge10thejudge10 Member Posts: 465
    edited November 2010
    fold
    you dont know the other players ranges,how the table been playing,against 2 players,its defo fold.
    in hindsight,you were in front,and totally dominated the 2 players,in poker we dont have hindsight,but u gained some useful information on the 2 players
  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited November 2010
    if you are rolled this is a snap shove. 
  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold?:
    fold you dont know the other players ranges,how the table been playing,against 2 players,its defo fold. in hindsight,you were in front,and totally dominated the 2 players,in poker we dont have hindsight,but u gained some useful information on the 2 players
    Posted by thejudge10
    How? You don't need reads to know there are certain ways people are unlikely to play at low limits.

    Against their range, you are ahead- guaranteed. The initial raiser *might* have AA or KK but if you fold every time someone *might* have it, you're in trouble. He could equally have any A, KQ/KJ/QJ even, any pp, even suited connectors. There's probably a dozen hands you're dominating, half a dozen you're flipping and two you're behind. The odds are even better for the caller. The shover is so unlikely to ever do that with AA or KK you can virtually discard them, shoving with those hands is way more advanced a move than you're likely to find here.

    AK is in such great shape against these hands, readless or not. Their betting has given you a decent enough range to work with straight away, and the only way this becomes a fold is IF you have reads that tell you otherwise.

    The more I look at the hand, regardless of the outcome, the more I become convinced it has to be a call if you got the roll.
  • thejudge10thejudge10 Member Posts: 465
    edited November 2010
    great answer dueces live,do u really want a  race first hand tho,reload then carry on i suppose.
    can see the logic in that,to be honest i play more mtt than cash
  • DollieDollie Member Posts: 706
    edited November 2010
    Thanks for you comments everybody.  Some very interesting posts, all of which I have found very helpful.  Deuces, you certainly have put a different slant on the hand (your reasoning is sound) and as a result I am sure I will play cash games more successfully in future.
  • spornybolspornybol Member Posts: 8,212
    edited November 2010
    got to admit your first hand a/k i`m reraising as it seems there tryin to bully, also how long where you watchin the table before you you sat down ?
  • TombmxTombmx Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2010

    20 seconds isnt long enough to decide for a hand like that imo, the correct fold though as YOUNG_GUN said, you could of been against any pairs or same hand suited. right fold,you didnt gamble what you didnt need to, let the others fight it off.

    deffo fold in torny play though ;)

  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited November 2010
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold?:
    In Response to Re: Was I Right to Fold? : There probably are better spots against him, but who's to say how long his money is going to be around for? If I think a call is +EV (which imo readless this is) then I'm making it regardless of how small the edge is. If we lose we can reload and win it back :) It takes something pretty special to make me fold AK 100bbs deep.
    Posted by yb
    i think its 1.25 +EV, i worked that out using a range i would put him on aq+ any pp, is this right or should i his exact hand? also i didnt take into consideration the other players left to act? i just use the basic method of: our equity x total pot - cost of our call
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