In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Disagree, I think the 5bet saved him money. GB is already narrowing down RV's range and does a click raise to find out if it is aces. If you can 6bet without aces and do not have a reputation as a maniac more power to you. If GB flats then any dryish flop Qhigh and lower comes down is he folding a flop jam? Back to the OP, it's a fold in a DYM but it's vital to know all of the stack sizes when deciding, particularly the player in 4th place as it stands. Posted by TommyD
Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless.
in hindsight glitters fold was legendary! although not good long term taking that line
as for fold kings pre never unless DYM and that depends on stack sizes etc , i had kings yesterday in £5 sit n go big stack raises, im 2nd-3rd, 4 left i shove, short stack 69 big stack AQ biggy calls hits 2 aces on flop standard :-)
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Disagree, I think the 5bet saved him money. GB is already narrowing down RV's range and does a click raise to find out if it is aces. If you can 6bet without aces and do not have a reputation as a maniac more power to you. If GB flats then any dryish flop Qhigh and lower comes down is he folding a flop jam? Back to the OP, it's a fold in a DYM but it's vital to know all of the stack sizes when deciding, particularly the player in 4th place as it stands. Posted by TommyD
he is turning KK into a bluff preflop. this is never good.
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless. Posted by yb
If you call the 4bet you are looking at a pot committing situation on the flop. The majority of flops will obviously not have a King or an Ace. So what's our plan? Are we leading out with a 40 bet which will be greeted with either a shove or a pot committing raise? Or are we checking to the raiser with the intention to going over the top or calling down? Do we get it all in on a ten high flop and say 'that's poker?' Or are you going to check/fold on a low flop where RV C-bets nearly every time? A flop with an Ace or King, or a triple suited/run down flop plays totally differently but this won't happen that much. Whatever happens unless you are check/folding to a decent C-Bet (an awful play IMO) you are dropping more money than the 15 quid you've used in the 5bet, so how has he not saved money in this instance?
Hitman's 4bet range is different to his 6bet range at this level against this player IMO. The 4bet range is narrow, the 6bet range is paper thin.
You mention betting to find out where you are allows you to be exploited. No decent player (which of course includes GB and RV) have a static attitude to their play. They adjust and develop with their history with each other. For instance, if Hitman decides to throw more 6bets at GB than he has done before GB will notice, think to himself 'that's because of those Kings I folded' and adjust his perception of his range accordingly.
I'm not saying 5bet folding with Kings is a great play against the field, the hand and indeed the fold is very player specific and by no means a standard hand.
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless. Posted by yb
i totally agree with your theory here, but if GB 5 bet with the intention of calling a shove then i think its a great bet he was allowed to get away from this imo by a bad 6 bet by RV, im going to give GB credit here unless he tells me otherwise lol
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : i totally agree with your theory here, but if GB 5 bet with the intention of calling a shove then i think its a great bet he was allowed to get away from this imo by a bad 6 bet by RV, im going to give GB credit here unless he tells me otherwise lol Posted by N1CK
Yah thats possible, I still think 5betting to get it in with KK is a mistake though given the players involved and how deep they are. I mean both their ranges from the cold 4bet onwards contain only AA and KK like 99% of the time lol.
Tommy the answers to most of your questions in the first paragraph are obviously totally villain dependent. He saved money as opposed to 7bet shoving in this case but that doesn't mean that 5bet folding is the correct play as like lolraise says we are essentially turning KK into a bluff pre which isn't good. Raising to ask questions does allow you to be exploited as assuming for a second that all the 'answers' you get are accurate, you don't win any extra money when you're in front and lose extra money when you're behind. Btw I'm pretty sure the 5bet is a raise of 25 not 15.
Also what hands are in hitman's cold 4betting range that aren't in his 6betting range do you think? 4betting AK/QQ in this spot is a pretty big mistake imo.
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Yah thats possible, I still think 5betting to get it in with KK is a mistake though given the players involved and how deep they are. I mean both their ranges from the cold 4bet onwards contain only AA and KK like 99% of the time lol. Posted by yb
Are you seriously quoting TJ Coutier by saying the fourth raise is always aces or kings?
BTW, I did make a mistake with the amount on the 5bet, it was 25 extra
BTW, I'd love it if GB actually had junk and was trying to take Hitman off a hand so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so.
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Are you seriously quoting TJ Coutier by saying the fourth raise is always aces or kings? And I did make a mistake in my earlier post, the bet was 25 pounds. BTW, I'd love it if GB actually had junk and was trying to take Hitman off a hand so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so. Posted by TommyD
Against a lag 100bbs deep, no. In this situation it nearly always is.
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Against a lag 100bbs deep, no. In this situation it nearly always is. And gb has that image for a reason lol! Posted by yb
I know lol Still a lovely thought though.
I think QQ would sneak into his 4bet range and AK might but is quite doubtful. Outside of GB and RV it looks like a laggy table and RV might think GB is 3betting wider than his normal range.
in a £33 dym with 5 plyrs left, i have about 3000 chips. comfortable 2nd place... blinds are 50 100. shortie makes it 400, big stack.with about 4000 chips goes all in , iv got KK should i call or just muck it. just in case you wondered i called and he showed QQ, great i thought until Q came on turn . Posted by CALLANIE
defo call just got unlucky it happens we all know it
In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Are you seriously quoting TJ Coutier by saying the fourth raise is always aces or kings? BTW, I did make a mistake with the amount on the 5bet, it was 25 extra BTW, I'd love it if GB actually had junk and was trying to take Hitman off a hand so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so. Posted by TommyD
LOL, I actually thought that at time!!
"so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so."
He actually said, and i remember it well....it was a hand or so after......
" How could i fold KINGS then?"
I thought he may have been just after info, so i just replied....
"good fold, lol"
logged the whole thing in my memory bank am building...plenty of room in there LOL !! and stored it away till i saw this thread title, felt his quality of play deserved a 'show' as i don't normally post hands!!!
Thanks for comments tho people, been interesting, sry to hi-jacked the OP a bit, FFS even learning the 'lingo' now!!
in a £33 dym with 5 plyrs left, i have about 3000 chips. comfortable 2nd place... blinds are 50 100. shortie makes it 400, big stack.with about 4000 chips goes all in , iv got KK should i call or just muck it. just in case you wondered i called and he showed QQ, great i thought until Q came on turn . Posted by CALLANIE
sry Callenie, on your original question, i'd like to think i'd fold!!
I was thinking to myself at what point would i turn this into a call, so would like to throw that out there anyone??? the variable being the size of the other large stack!!
I have already decided that if he has more or equal chips i hope i'd be folding, but if i had 400/800/1200 more chips than him.....mmmm?
Assuming there are a couple of shorties........defo call with 1200, 800 not sure, 400 Fold!!
What do u wise ones reckon?
Another thought, if there are only 4 left instead of 5, this turns it into a defo call yes??? On the basis that BOTH are unlikey to beat you! Or am I wrong ?
Comments
as for fold kings pre never unless DYM and that depends on stack sizes etc , i had kings yesterday in £5 sit n go big stack raises, im 2nd-3rd, 4 left i shove, short stack 69 big stack AQ biggy calls hits 2 aces on flop standard :-)
he is turning KK into a bluff preflop. this is never good.
Also what hands are in hitman's cold 4betting range that aren't in his 6betting range do you think? 4betting AK/QQ in this spot is a pretty big mistake imo.
And gb has that image for a reason lol!
LOL, I actually thought that at time!!
"so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so."
He actually said, and i remember it well....it was a hand or so after......" How could i fold KINGS then?"
I thought he may have been just after info, so i just replied....
"good fold, lol"
logged the whole thing in my memory bank am building...plenty of room in there LOL !! and stored it away till i saw this thread title, felt his quality of play deserved a 'show' as i don't normally post hands!!!
Thanks for comments tho people, been interesting, sry to hi-jacked the OP a bit, FFS even learning the 'lingo' now!!
GL all, X
I was thinking to myself at what point would i turn this into a call, so would like to throw that out there anyone??? the variable being the size of the other large stack!!
I have already decided that if he has more or equal chips i hope i'd be folding, but if i had 400/800/1200 more chips than him.....mmmm?
Assuming there are a couple of shorties........defo call with 1200, 800 not sure, 400 Fold!!
What do u wise ones reckon?
Another thought, if there are only 4 left instead of 5, this turns it into a defo call yes???
On the basis that BOTH are unlikey to beat you! Or am I wrong ?